Sean Dyche
Sean Dyche is the current manager of Burnley, having been in charge since October 2012. For 20 years he was a professional footballer making over 450 appearances, but he is best known as a manager. His achievements since joining Burnley mark him as one of the club's most successful managers in the modern era. Sean steered the club to promotion to the Premier League within 18-months of his arrival and in the 2017/18 campaign, Burnley finished 7th - their highest league standing since 1975 - bringing European football back to Turf Moor for the first time in 51 years.
TRANSCRIPT
Sean Dyche
JAKE: … so shaping the club in your own image? Does that ring true when we talk about what you've done here in the UK with Burnley?
SEAN: Yeah, it could be – with me suave, sophisticated…
JAKE: All those things.
SEAN: Yeah, sort of Rob Lowe looking back in the heyday. Maybe Tom Cruise in there as well, but, no I think, you know, the, the reality is, um, some of the values I think possibly. Erm, I don't think, uh, literally everything's about about me. I've had to head it up, like managers just do. And I think the longer you're into a club, then you rub off on what's around you more and more. Um, but I think it's a collective attitude. I think it is. I have to lead that, but I'd like to think the staff, the players, um, people at the club buy in to some of the key core values that we've layed down and once they were laid down, we built around them.
JAKE: So what are those key core values? If I say to you, a Sean Dyche team, and this is really so that, you know, people at home that don't even work in football, are not involved in elite level sport, I want them to sort of get takeaways for their own world. So what are the things that you believe make a successful organisation, whether that is football, finance?
SEAN: Well, I've gone back on, on record many times and said, you know, it started for me as a young kid when the first club I ever played for, Ise Lodge Football Club, little you know Sunday League club, the coach there, I'm not saying he's an amazing coach, but he said a great attitude’s everything. And it just stuck with me all my life. So that's not a bad start. If you've got people around who’ve got a great attitude towards whatever it is, whatever goal you intend to try and achieve, if they've got a great attitude towards it, that's a great start. For me coming into Burnley, the first thing was to get a feel of the xxx. I’ve been up here many times, many different teams. I know that that the town is dominated by the football club and the people of the town back in the football club. So I knew that already. So really I thought, well what, what, what would they want to see? Well, the first thing you want to see in my opinion, is a team that gives everything. So the first thing was that. At my first ever interview, I said, I can't promise you a win, you know, or lose. I can't promise you major success. What I can promise you, you'll have a team that will give everything. There will be sweat on the shirt. And I meant every word of it. I think, you know, from a fan point of view, we know it's changed now, I'm sure we'll talk about, you know, brand, and, you know, styles and the culture of, of football has changed. But a modern, fan even would still want, I think, to see a player give their lot, give everything they can. So that's a good start. So a lot of the simplicity of it came off the back of that. And then if you're talking about that before you worry about four, four, two, and four, three, three, you then going into the world of mindset. And if you go into mindset, well, what are the key core values that you want that mind to be set on? Well, hard work, passion, pride and enthusiasm, an agreed work ethic, an agreed application to the task. And all these things start kicking in. And we were looking to put that in way before we worried about four, four, two, and four, three, three - because we felt that were the bedrock to build not just a team but to build on beyond a team, and build it into the club if you like. So I guess I take some lead on that, you know, of course. And some good news from that if you like, when people say, well it's a Sean Dyche club or a team, but trust me there’s been a lot of people who’ve bought into them thoughts to actually make it happen and to get us where we are today.
DAMIAN: Could I ask you though, Sean, because to inherit a club like that is often on the back of somebody being dismissed beforehand. So how far away was the club from those values that you've just described when you first came in?
SEAN: Well it was slightly different because Eddie had been here, and Jason, and done a pretty good job overall. There was a bit of a tough start to that particular season, but not, not in trouble or anything. I think when I got in they were 16th, and they'd had a couple of losses, then on the pitch they conceded a lot of goals. Eddie, Eddie wanted a very open style of football and they conceded a lot of goals. So that was easy, eh, not easy to stop, that would have been an easy message was, look, you all know we’ve got to stop conceding. So on the pitch that was that. Cultural difference, different style of manager, coaching styles, you know, that sort of thing was different, of course - not right or wrong by the way – cause Eddie’s got xxx brilliantly. Um, he had his style, I've got mine. More about shifting the culture then. So it wasn't a bad culture, or a good culture, it was just shifting it to what we wanted. Um, and a lot of that came originally from feedback. I asked the players. I gave them a very simple questionnaire. I said, I want complete anonymity. I don't, you know, I'm not interested. If you want to write on it stupid words and draw funny pictures, which one player did, you’re more than welcome to. If you want to answer it seriously, you're more than welcome to. If you want to be flippant, you can. But I remind you of this. This is your chance to say everything you need to say about what's right and wrong about it currently, and what you expect going forward. If you choose to throw away that chance that's up to you. But I said, don't think they'll be another one in anytime soon. Because once this is an agreed thing… But from buy in from them as well, and I listened, so we got on with it like that.
JAKE: And what sort of questions were on that questionnaire?
SEAN: Well, you know the hardest thing you'll do, you'll definitely know this is not loading them with the words in the question. So you’re trying to keep the questions so open that it doesn't guide you, because I didn't want to guide them into the answer I wanted. I wanted it to be as honest as possible. Just really simple, well trying to use simple wording like, what does the outside world think of you now? As a team, this is. What do, you know, so, they, they were in columns, like team, individual, way forward, or something like that. So the team one was like, what does the outside world think of you now? What do you want them to think of you? Say something like that. So trying to keep it as minimal words but clear understanding. Um, individually similar questions. You know, uh, where do you want to go? You know, tell us where you want to go. So just leaving it as open as possible. And there were some really good stuff. There was some standard stuff, you know, what else…
JAKE: Can you, does anything still stand out to you from all that time ago?
SEAN: Yeah, I mean, well you get the, the hardest thing in any feedback scenario is classroom answers, I call it. So you know, there, there's the teacher at the front. They want to give you the answer that you want. And I was like, absolutely not. I tried to get them to say, I said, look, give me the answer you want, but give me the answer you believe is correct. Don't give me the answer you think I want, as the new manager. Cause it's not going to get us anywhere. Um, there was things like they felt they were a bit soft as a team. They felt they were, could have been beaten too easily. There was, you know, so that's more team stuff. Um, there was things like, um, you know, the, um, sharpness and fitness but not, uh, not being detrimental to Eddie. Just a different style of fitness, like strength fitness, you know, conditioning and stuff like that. So there's some physical stuff, which is, they're pretty standard by the way. There's a few, you know, a bit more depth. There was a few saying I want more from my career, I want to develop my career. You know, there was, can you, can you help that outcome? You know, questions as well. So yes it was a mixed bag, um, and I wasn't expecting anything profound by the way. I was just expecting really to first things first, let them know I’m here to listen.
JAKE: Yeah.
SEAN: I’m not here to tell you everything all the time. I will listen. Second thing is see who can just find that one to give you the truth. Because like I say, several classroom answers. And third thing, you know, you just get a feel of what's going on. Because even from that you're looking at body language, you're looking at the words they use, you're looking at when they feed it back. So, we, after that we had an open feedback so they fed it back to us. I made it clear that I’d read them all. This is what came out. These were the things that came up the most often. And then we spoke to xxx, then you got tonality, body language, you know the, the meaning, the words they use. Is it them twisted words like positive negatives or negative positives, and you start learning about the group very quickly.
DAMIAN: I can imagine in an exercise like that, that very quickly you'll see your leaders, your architects start to emerge, when you do an exercise like that. How quickly did that happen for you?
SEAN: Well, I found that leadership’s changing. You know, in, in back in my day when I was a player, you know, from, so I played from ‘87 onwards, you know, that era, for 20 years. And I've seen leadership change radically in football. You know, the football leaders back then were usually vocal, um, consistent, um, not just in their messages in the way they played. They were pretty stand up, you know, they'd have a laugh but they knew when to be serious, that type of leader. But leadership's changed now. You know, you started looking at, well the first kind of leadership shift I noticed was like David Beckham, you thought, well, he's definitely not going to be leading through his words and all that stuff. But he's going to be leader by the fact that put me on a football pitch and I'm going to give you everything, and I'm going to do it with a bit of style and a bit of class, and you know, conviction. So you know, you start opening your mind even when I was playing I started to think, well, there's more to this, you know, than just being a vocal leader. So I think it's changing. I think you then watching the group, who's saying what, but also the, the depth of what they're saying. So you know there could be a true leader who’s quieter but he comes out with a really, you know, you think that proper, that’s somebody who’s thought about that, somebody’s delivering that with a bit of conviction. So, I’ve had that as well, you know, a quiet leader. So I think you're picking, you're picking, trying to pick these golden nuggets out of these people, but all the time thinking group leadership is always better. If you can get them to maximise their leadership potential as individuals, in their own styles, and then usually the manager is kind of a leader off that. And then you get this collection of, not always obvious leaders, but leaders of a different type. But I think we've tried to form that over time.
JAKE: So what do you do in that scenario where you want the David Beckham type character, the standout footballer, the Maverick who comes in and makes a difference to a team along with a group that you can still manage and mould in the way that you want your team, not just operate on the field of play, but the way you want them to interact with each other?
SEAN: Back to the start point - key core values. Whether you're good, bad, indifferent, whether you the classiest player or not you should be able to respond to a simple line of what we stand for. After that you’re then looking at, you know, can they mould, can they be a Maverick as you know, but not the, you know, Clive xxx said energisers and sappers.
JAKE: Yeah.
SEAN: So we brought a bit of that in, you know. We've got to remove the sappers. Give them a chance to realign. If they don't realign you got removed. Um, but also there is a bit of flexibility within what we're talking about. I think if it's too hard and fast, and it's like my way or the highway, that can equally lose belief in what it stands for.
JAKE: But they can't undermine your culture, though. Cause as soon as one player does that, everyone else looks and goes, Sean’s a soft touch.
SEAN: No, but like I say that’s when the energisers and sappers have come in. The, the biggest, when you know you're on to something is when the group starts sorting it out. That's always when, you know, when they start self-policing, you know, you're on to something. Now that takes time to build that of course. Um, cause most footballers have a survival instinct, it’s me first, you know. Then beyond that they start buying into the group. And then if you have success, of course, they start protecting the group. So you know, you, you want to lead at first and you lay down a lot of things that you think are important. As it goes longer and longer I do less of the leading and my staff take control, and I summarise and look from a distance and join it and move in. But that takes time to build that. So I think there's a number of different things that are important within it. Um, but I think feedback I think’s important. Realigning professional ego, I think’s important.
JAKE: Explain that.
SEAN: Well, so when we, when we were here, I made it clear, leader ego up the drive. Well you’ve just come down that drive. It’s about a mile long, for the listeners. It’s about a mile long. I said, leave it at the gates. And I said, when you're in here, we're all the same. We remove our egos, we're all humble, we’re all getting on with the work and we're all working as hard as we can. When you go back to the gates, put your ego back on, do whatever you want, act how you want, et cetera, et cetera. But when you're in here, we build a one team mentality and a one club mentality. Why is it we did that? Taking it away from people, football, it’s not an ego - ego suggests sometimes that it's a bad thing - you've got to have an ego to walk in front of 78,000 at Old Trafford. You've got to have a certain kind of ego, but there's got to be a humble side to that ego. You know, so we had players who, we used to do dance offs, sing offs and everything. And it makes people uncomfortable. But once they realise, actually these are laughing with me, they're not laughing at me.
JAKE: Yeah.
SEAN: Then their ego comes off from them, and they go, do you know what, yeah, fair play. Yeah, we had, uh I'm not going to say who, it's not fair. But we had one player who was, so now and again we’d do a xxx. If you lost, you had to do a dance off in the middle of a circle, the lads clapping. I'm not kidding, one player, I swear I don't think he lost for about 10 weeks, and it finally came around and at first you could see he was dying, but afterwards of course, the next time it come round, he’s like, yeah, okay. So you know, you just, you’re just stripping it back a little bit, and kind of, look, we're all together. You know, you've got to go through the bad times, the good times together. And with that humble edge, and that feeling that your mates are with you. You know, they're not there laughing at you. They're actually laughing with you. Now that seems a weird thing and a simple thing. But I've seen it work right in front of my eyes.
DAMIAN: Sure. See, what I love about that Sean is that one of the things that I've seen with the best coaches is that they see every opportunity as coachable. So we were talking about a mutual friend of ours, Tony Smith, where I remember that he used to stand at the end of a canteen queue, and see who were the players that just filled their plates up without any regard to the guys behind them and whether there was enough food for everybody. So he felt that that’d give him an insight whether somebody was selfish or team-minded. Do you look for opportunities to re-enforce the culture?
SEAN: Yeah, I mean, that was, you know, back to the days when I was at Forest - Brian Clough. You know, honestly, if you didn't show good manners, he's was on you. We do that here. Not cause of Brian Clough by the way. But things you remember when you … you think, why? Can you not just speak to someone in the right manner? What, where, where did that, that’ll never go out of fashion in my world.
JAKE: Yeah.
SEAN: So therefore, speak to people in the right manner. We travel clean as a group. We don't have one person with flip flops, one person with ear phones on, one person with one arm, one sleeve turned up one sleeve down and one leg up and one down and all that nonsense. We don't have that. They’re the non-negotiables. The negotiables are wide and varied. The lads know that here. Can’t name em all, but we do days off, we listen, we, you know, so there's way less non-negotiables than there are negotiables. But certain things are important. How we look, how we conduct ourself, to me are very important as a team. We get loads of good feedback here from traveling at airports and train station - people writing emails – saying by the way, your lads were terrific. They stood with my kids… We don't do the security. Virtually every single Premier League team now has some big security firms within the teams. We don't do security. We just travel.
JAKE: Why is that?
SEAN: Because I think we, we’re, we're a little club and I'm not doing us down, but we’re a little club relatively speaking in the Premier League. I don't remotely think we're a team of superstars. And I think that humble edge is important. It's important to our town. You know, there's a connection here with the players, the club and the team. It's not a corporate club really. You know, there is a real connection. And I think them little things are important. Now, I must make it clear, I totally understand - I'm not judging - I've seen Man City. Their players are all world stars. They do need security sometimes. And let me make that clear. You know, I've heard stories when Man U were in the Far East, and, you know, they go to the hotel, and there's like 10,000 people there. So they can't even just go for a walk. So let me make that clear, I do understand that. But while we, while we're not that, and while we can be open and control our situation, you know, in a good way then we will. If a time comes when year on year, this club is growing, and putting more money in, and signing superstars then we would have to look at it. So I must make that clear. But at the moment we don't need to do that. So we remain humble, remain open, we speak to people in the right way, we treat people in the right way. And I think that's still an important thing
DAMIAN: When you're looking to recruit somebody to come into the club then, these are all like very human characteristics that you're looking for. How do you go about making sure that there is that right cultural fit - that you've gonna bring somebody in that will observe these traditions?
SEAN: Well the, the, you try and do as much background. There's a load of stories about, you know, cause I’ve been here seven years, and we don't spend a lot of money. Then it's like we won’t sign foreign players. It’s a load of nonsense. I've said it in many interviews. We haven't got the depth that we need. This is not a club who want to sign foreign players that we don't know enough about for 20 million quid and sell em two years later for 7 million quid. This club does not want to be doing that. This club is built on trying to buy players who we know good stuff about. We can develop em, and one day they get sold. Or, they’re so good in them years that maybe they grow older being part of the club. So they’ve given you the money back in value, you know, for what they do, and what they give. So that's that one out of the way, that’s that one clear. Um so beyond that of course it stands to reason when you've been in the game as long as I have, then you know loads of people throughout the game. I xxx xxx. I know, I've ringed a couple of education officers, you know, to ask about the character of a player, to ask what they’re like. I’ve rung youth coaches up, players I've known have been on the scene for 18, er since they were 18, sorry, playing in first teams. Well I've gone back to when they were 18, spoke to the youth coaches to find out, you know - by the way not about their ability. Who are they? That's a really, really powerful thing I believe, I believe. My belief is that. And I know, like you said, you've got to work with Mavericks and all that. Of course you have. But there's not a manager out there, you know… cause I often, well I’ll give you an example. People say to me, Oh you always sign good characters. I said, show me a manager who doesn't want to sign good characters. I'm telling you, they all want to sound good characters. It's just that some are slightly flawed, but their skill set is so good, you'll put up with the flaws. And then I do remind them, everyone tells me about good characters, I said, well, I saw Joey Barton, you know, so were you thinking he was a good character? Cause I xxx you weren't. Well so, then you go, Why, were they all good characters then? But I thought underneath it all he was the right character and a good character, which we found out he was. So, you know, there's a lot more to it. You can't just make out that every player has got the perfect attitude. They haven’t. Once they’re here we try and mould them into what we've, first to what we've put in, and equally what we believe is important.
JAKE: Yep. And do you buy into the idea that talent gets you into the room, and your attitude keeps you in the room?
SEAN: It's not a bad shout. Um, uh, you know, on the other hand, you know, is it the attitude that can build a talent? You know? So if, that’s a xxx sign of talent, particularly if we're now aligned in the Premier League, right? There has to be enough talent of course. But can the talent be mould, sort of mould-friendly that the attitude will take the talent to another level? That's the decider. That's really the bit that is really difficult to analyse. Are they good enough in the first place, but capped? Or are they slightly less good but have growth? And that’s the hardest thing to analyse, you know. Some people can have glue and fly, some people plateaux. And some people actually drift and they can't quite find the moments that got them there in the first place, you know, when you sign a player and he might have been awesome, and you get them in and they can't re-find it. So that's why it's so difficult signing players. It really is. Recruitment is difficult. When you've got loads of analysts, loads of teams of scouts or whatever you’ve got, it’s still very, very difficult. And that's why you see some enormous sums paid for players who end up being all right. You know, they're not wonderful - they're all right. Cause it's difficult.
DAMIAN: And how long would you give a player to come in and prove themselves? So if you were bringing somebody in and you felt they had the right attitude and they weren't quite, quite blossoming in terms of performance, how long would you…
SEAN: Yeah, we've had a few of them. James Tarkowski was like that. He had to sit tight while um, uh, Ben Mee and Keano were doing great. Keano’s another one. He played, uh, came in, played about 18 games in the Premier League, learn - didn't quite happen for him. Um, came back in the championship, was awesome, Premier League, excellent. Got sold for a fortune. We've had a number of them. Nick Pope – he had to sit tight, while Tommy was doing well. He was learning in the background, as in Bailey now, um, you know, they're learning in the background and you see their attitude, then. You see, are they sticking to task, are they sticking with what the end product’s gonna be? Them players I've just mentioned – absolutely, one hundred percent. xxx , you know, sticking it day in, day out, attitude great, training hard. And then you think, your day will come. It's just like something about life, you know, they find a way. They just force their way through it just by being there, but just by doing it right all of the time. The ones that do that are the ones that usually get paid back. I don't mean pay as in money but paid back with a chance or a break or something happens which rewards them.
DAMIAN: Well Jake and I were talking about this in the xxx. We were talking about, um, many years ago I spoke to Alex Ferguson when Danny Welbeck was coming through, and um, we were talking about his development. And one of his things was, the reason he’d persevered with him was that he was the kid that would always go and collect the balls after training. And he said, and I always noted he went for the most difficult balls, the ones that were furthest away or the ones that were stuck up in a tree. Cause he felt it told him something about his attitude, which would mean that he was prepared to be patient and persevere with it.
SEAN: Well, yeah, I mean I understand he's trying to, he's been brilliant with me. When I came up to the North he stretched out to make sure he made contact and said, come and have a coffee with me. And I've kept in touch ever since. Been brilliant. Not just me, by the way. A lot of young manager, well slightly older manager, but young manager at the time. And you know, he often explained things like that to me, you know? But I remember that from Brian Clough back in the day, like I said, good manners – he’d search for that, you know. And if you didn't, honestly you would get it. You would… I’m not gonna use the words, but you would get it, in no uncertain terms. You know, your conduct around the place. Simple things, you know, like you know a cultural shift it seems to me a lot of kids now, they seem to be grumpy kids... It's like you pass them in the corridor and it’s like uh, uh, alright? Would you stop and go, no, no, no, no, no? You're a young professional footballer, or you wanna be.
JAKE: And you do that, do you?
SEAN: Absolutely. Just go, have you ever looked around? Oh yeah, yeah, yeah. So now you go, right, good morning, morning. So even though it seems crazy, but these little things eventually rub off. You know, and it’s, you know yourself, your muscle memory, your actions, how you remember things, how you conduct yourself in future - they're all things that make a difference cause not every player, you know… I'll give you an example. This is my belief. I've got, I've got children, and I say I use a lot of this with them. Cause I treat my players similar really. I say to my, you know, my kids, I go, look, there's not many kids it seems to me out there with that kind of attitude, cause I see em a lot. If you just do them basics, you look someone in the eyes, you show them around, you speak to them in a proper manner, that will get you started straight away. Straight away. Before you do anything in life that will get you started. So these are simple life skills, that they haven't always got, or they haven’t always been taught. Or they've lost the belief in them.
JAKE: Yeah.
SEAN: The point to the story is that if you don't become a footballer, you'll stand out because of them things. You go into an interview, people go, cor, I like the way they handle themselves, I like the way they can do xxx. I like the way… Do get what I mean?
JAKE: Yeah, yeah.
SEAN: So we're always trying to reaffirm just good life skills. And by the way, do you know what's interesting? We've been talking for a while now. Have you noticed we haven’t even gone to four, four, two, and four, three, three, and all that. Cause I don’t just…
JAKE: Cause there's so much more to it.
SEAN: Yeah, but that is the case.
JAKE: What we’ve spoken a lot about though is you constantly improving your players, helping your players - sometimes changing your players. You've now been here for a number of years. What do you have to do about yourself to change and evolve so that they're not hearing the same message in the same way from the same guy every day, and eventually they kind of are desensitised to it?
SEAN: It's really difficult. Um, as you know, I've got a certain sound, and it sounds negative a lot because of the, the gruffness in my voice. So I tend to use probably about eight to one positives to negatives, because my voice sounds like that anyway. So I'm quite self aware of that.
JAKE: So you're aware of that?
JAKE: Oh absolutely. Yeah. So behind that, I go and, I keep my mind open. I visit places and when I can and, you know, lately it's been the rugby thing more cause of the culture. Some would say it’s xxx the football.
JAKE: What'd you like about the rugby culture?
SEAN: I just think that it’s, it's not where football is now, um, you know, financially. And that can change things, and it will do in rugby. Um, there's still that kind of inner core, uh, belief in groups. And a very, they have to be by the nature of the game, have to be extremely competitive. And therefore they're extremely competitive in their groups, in their packs if you like. But how will they keep the respect lines even though they're cracking into each other every day constantly. So things like that, you know, I like that. I like the training xxx, like how they look after their selves, loads of different things, you know, what they’re thinking about culture, about environments and things like that. I went down to the Oxford boat crew, like, absolutely, made sure xxx is still there. I emailed him last year, I think he's still there, and he was terrific. I learned a lot xxx.
JAKE: What did you take from that?
SEAN: Well, you got non-professionals who are the most professional people I've ever seen. I mean, raw, super raw. They were in a gym. They just had a blackboard with literally the date and the time of the boat race written on it. But a blackboard. Not like some trendy, amazing poster with lights around it, just a blackboard. And they walk over, they get the rowing machines down, do it all their self, get on the rowers. Here we go, bang. Start. Absolutely smashing it out. You just think it's a rawness. You know, there's a, there's a belief in that rawness that gives them that edge.
JAKE: Do you think football might have lost that a bit?
SEAN: It can, it’s not, it’s not that it’s lost it. I mean don’t get me wrong, you know, you can't, you can't take it back there. You've got a feel of our facilities here, you know. We were just talking about before, we started this, and you're not going to take em back to the scruffy gym that the boxer started in. You know, you're not going to do that. So, but it's making them aware that the reason why these things are here. So it's not like a crutch to lean on. These are actually here for elite performance and therefore we've got to keep that mindset. And that sounds easy. It’s not easy. Cause it does soften your edge sometimes, you know, if all these things are so amazing that you end up doing not a lot yourself. Um, so it's kind of, it's a fine line to... For example, when we did the training ground, when we did it with the designers, we had a lot of input. They were great - the architects and designers. And we said, look, it's got to be nice enough, cause they lives have moved forward, including our lives. You know, players here now are earning good money. They’ll expect a certain level, because they've grown into that. But it can't be so nice. It's not, you know, like gowns and slippers, you know what I mean? I can assure you. You know, there’s gotta be an element where no, no, it's a workplace, you know, and it means something. So it’s a fine line that, but that's to try and keep that, that little raw edge in the background, you know, so that the good boxers never forget the first gym.
DAMIAN: Can I ask about these CPD visits that you've done to other environments? Because I see a lot of coaches go into different environments and then they'll often come back with a gimmick that they'll try and introduce.
SEAN: I've always thought, ye, I try, I attempt and my staff attempt to put things in place that are meaningful and they last. I also believe that, you know, the best coaches are the best thieves. So you, you choose the things you’re stealing, you know. And you choose the ones that you think will work in your environment.
DAMIAN: So what would you say has been the best idea that you've stolen from another culture that you've implemented with the best effect?
SEAN: Um, I've had that many influences - I played for 20 years. I'd loads of different coaches, loads of xxx, I played all the different levels, and then I coached through the system at Watford with Aidy Booth... So Aidy Boothroyd, right, sometimes get, not so much latterly, he’s done great with the England set up. But, you know, he got a bit of stick, he plays this way. But behind it - super organised, great with feedback, good method to his thoughts on the planning - forgetting about styles - now on the planning. So I nicked a lot of ideas about feedback structure. The late Dick Bait, unfortunately passed away, big friend of mine and someone I brought here as a consultant, but, you know, been years as a coach. He's like a professor of coaching. So the use of PowerPoint, the use of language, the use of getting points across, the use of a mistake. He used to deliberately make a mistake so someone would correct him - cause now they'd remember the fact that they corrected him. You know, lovely, lovely little, little twists and tweaks, you know. Um, David Dodds who was with me at Watford, you know, working with young players, you know. Done it for years and working to em, speaking to em, you know, in a certain manner – and trying to get the best out of em. John Duncan who I played with at Chesterfield on maximising a group that were alright, and turning em into a group that split up for millions of pounds at a club that never sold a player in forty years or whatever. You know, so there's all these different influences, you know, and I've named a few, but there's loads, loads more than that.
JAKE: And were you consciously absorbing these when you were a player? Did you always have this plan?
SEAN: No, I think, I think you reflect on them more so later on in life. I reflected on some of them. So when I got to, the first time I thought I was going to go into this side of it was under John Duncan at Chesterfield. I started getting intrigued by…, because we started having good success for a small club, and I started thinking, hang on, this is not my accident, this is by design. We're now, you know, we, we all couldn't stand him for the first year. I certainly couldn't. I tell you now, he’s a good friend of mine, I use him now. I bounce things off him. And that's when I first started thinking, I'm having this. And at Millwall I worked with Mark McGee, a really terrific young group of players. Richie Sadlier unfortunately got injured. Joe Dolan, another one got injured. But top young players. Timmy Cahill, of course you'd know him. And Steven Reid, and these were quality young players, had a real edge to em, and I was the older pro, me and Stuart, xxx these guys and Steve Claridge come in for a bit. But you, they’re rubbing off on you, and thinking right this is a good mix. Some old boys like me keep it right, and these young whippets who are a different class. You know, so you know, you start reflecting on that. And you start piecing these things together. Took my B licence. Got my A licence at the end of my career and xxx Colin Goldman – another one I thought was excellent, right at the end of my career, really enjoyed him. Went on my A licence, got that done, and by the end of all that, and all my thoughts, got the biggest twist of fate ever - went down to watch David Dodds work at Watford, just to see him coach, re-met Aidy Boothroyd who’d got rid of me as a player, sat on a bench, spoke to about what we're speaking about now - my thoughts on it - got a phone call, xxx Aidy wants to bring you. And he got rid of me as a player, but he liked what I said…
JAKE: What was it that you said on that occasion that you…
SEAN: What we were talking about - just that I finished playing, this is what I've learned. So, Aidy, this is what I've learned. And he's a really receptive guy. I like Aidy a lot. I've got a lot of respect for him. He's a bright guy and he, and he was listening, you know. He wasn't pretend listening, he was listening, listening. So he got me in. And then you've got a chance then. And that sounds really simple. It wasn't simple, you know, under 18s jobs, you know, are hard to come by. You know, so I was very lucky to get with really good people away. And then you’re off and running. And then you re-mould in some of your thoughts, add in your own thoughts and then you’re learning every day, from the feedback from these young people who are trying to be footballers. I loved it, absolutely loved the youth setup, really do.
JAKE: So what's the thrill for you then? Is it three points on a Saturday? Is it learning about people? Is it improving people? Is it improving yourself?
SEAN: The thrill for me - I got in it to help others. I thought I had a decent career and I didn't think all of it was helped along the way. And I thought if I ever get a chance, the first port of call would be make you better than me or give you the chance, guide you to be better than me. That's still really is the underbelly of what I do. The three points, you know, it's funny winning. True success, like, say like, because, because staying in the Premier League is a different form of success. But say like when we won the league, right. When you win the League that is, that is an awesome thing. That's like a season's work of true unadulterated “find a way to win”. It's the only way you can get promoted is to find a way. Can't always be sexy and lovely. Sometimes got to be grind. It's gotta be powerful. You've got to do what you've gotta do. And when you do that, that is a massive achievement. So don't get me wrong. You can never take that way, that feeling. Cause that's unbelievable. But deep down behind that, why do I actually do it, is really to give people a better chance than I had. That's what I really like. And do you know what? Sometimes if you can also help just add a bit to their lives, as people, then even better, you know? That's really what I think is important…
JAKE: I think that's probably a really, really healthy way to approach football management, isn't it? Rather than the kind of manager that lives or dies by three points on a Saturday.
DAMIAN: When you look at the end of a season, how much difference do you make in points terms for you as a, as a manager? What difference do you think you make?
SEAN: I don't think, I don't really look at it. I think the group make a difference. I mean last year was a perfect example of a group of people who turned a situation around. You know, we were in massive trouble at the half way point. We had 12 points at 19 games. We’d just been stuffed by Everton. Loads of noise about it. Probably the first time in a long time I'd been heavily questioned. Ur, you know, can we move forward? I must say the fans were great, I will say that. Cause that's not easy for fans. But they stood, stood by me and what was going on, and when they could have downed tools. But then you've got a group of people - you could almost smell it when I went, right, enough’s enough. And we turned it round.
JAKE: You’re talking about the players there?
SEAN: Yeah. The xxx staff and me included - but a group, a connected group who possibly had been at stretch, the connections that the belief in what we've done, the belief in what we do, had probably been at stretch actually. Probably, not possibly had been at stretch. To gather it back together, and to make it go forward again, and not only go forward, we, we smashed the second half of the season, which is not easy. That's actually my biggest success. So if people think that my success here, you know, the promotion and we got to Europe, like. That's not in my view, that's not my biggest success as the manager. And the players played a massive, massive part in that turn turnaround…
JAKE: What made the turnaround, that season, what was the moment?
SEAN: After we got done by Everton.
JAKE: You remember that, that feeling well?
SEAN: Yeah, you could sense it – in the room. It was like, right, enough's enough. Forget about what I did or said. I think the group just went, that’s, we’re better than this. It’s hard to explain. It's like a collective, you can almost smell it, you know, and you can, you can taste it in the room. You think, right, you’ve bottomed out, I can sense it. So actually after that, there was no slanging matches and all that. It was very simply a meeting, a PowerPoint of probably about eight things that we’d forgotten. And I said, lads, this is what we're about, this is what we do.
JAKE: Can you remember what they were?
SEAN: Yeah, basics – shape, alignment. Alignment was a big one. An aligned mentality. We all know what is needed, but we've chosen decisions to decide we don't need that. We've actually chosen as individual… I don't think I need that any more.
JAKE: Through what? Exhaustion? Thinking xxx better?
SEAN: Well you get a little bit, for the first time don’t forget xxx before you finished seventh. And it's human nature to think, I think I’ve cracked this. It’s human nature. But we don't xxx staff, but not because we're mega intelligent. Just cause you’re a bit older and wiser. You think, no, no, you've never cracked football. Trust me, you've never cracked it. But when you're a bit younger, and you've got a few quid and you've had a bit of kudos because now you've finished seventh and you’re getting interviews and things that’d never come your way before. And actually people go, no, do you know what, I think some xxx buys at the real thing. I think they actually are that, whatever that is, and then all of a sudden you've got this weird dynamic. And then you've got Europe, European football which was odd and it's very tiring, very hard, injuries and all these different things start going…
JAKE: So if that happened again and you finished sixth this season, for example?
SEAN: Resign! Go to the beach.
JAKE: Apart from resigning and going to the beach, was there a learning for you that right, I now know what I do if we finish sixth?
SEAN: I tell what, on reflection, I was pleased with? No panic. There was no panic in camp, no panic from me, no panic from the staff.
JAKE: Doubt?
SEAN: There’s always doubt. You can't, you don't, you don't, you don't get the elation of a win or the feeling to push unless you have doubt, I don’t think. You have to have doubt. It's just a human trait. You know, all the things that we'd laid down, backed up by years of doing it, backed up by no panic, backed up by clear alignment, this is what we need to do. That is what put all the noses back in the right direction. But the key was the acceptance of a group of people who said, right, we're with you.
DAMIAN: So how do you harness that, to then replicate it again and again?
SEAN: Well you got to, you can always go back to it and go, Hey, lads, remember, staff remember. You know how it felt. Don't forget. You know how wrong it felt to realign it to be right. Cause we've been down that road before, there's alignment, lads, we need to do better. But there's not that kind of, Oh it's all wrong. There’s none of that thought. It's like no, no, no, we know what we’re doing. It's now about delivering, and deliver it better.
DAMIAN: So who plays the part for you, then, Sean, of being the voice on your shoulder that, like the voice in your ear that sort of keeps you on your…
SEAN: Yeah, you’ve got your own self talk, quite obviously. And I’ve plenty of that, sitting on the M6 for half my life. So there's plenty of that. You've got your staff, of course, and especially if you've got trusted stuff, you know, I say we have an agreement, tell me, don't, don't ever talk behind my back, just tell me - good news or bad news – just tell me. So you’ve got that. You’ve got outside, family in a different way – they, more of a relax. It's not that they absorb… My Mrs don’t know about football. She’s not that bothered about football. She absorbs in a different way. She knows when to take my mind away from it and go right, we're going out with the kids. She knows I don’t really want sympathy. Don't really like that. Bit of empathy now and again. A bit of like, Dad just needs an hour, you know.
JAKE: How important is perspective outside the game?
SEAN: Massive. I mean I use that a lot. You know, cause football can be really intense and it can be really overbearing at times. I use that a lot. You know, I, I xxx. We xxx to come out of Watford, for example, I got the sack there. And they said after that, Oh, you know, you must be this, must be that. I said, well people are a lot worse off than me - both career wise and financially – who get the sack, you know, and they're in real trouble. I'm not in trouble, you know. It happens. It's one of the challenges of the job that I’m in. So if my day comes, which inevitably will do, either you leave for good reasons - you go on somewhere else, or you leave for bad reasons, you get the sack, trust me, I'll be right. I'm not going to start crying over it.
DAMIAN: A question that Jake and I were sort of reflecting on in terms of a lot of the stuff that we've read about you and we know that the principles that you've introduced here at Burnley, how replicable do you think they would be outside of the world of football?
SEAN: When you’re talking culture, very transferable. Most business I’ve spoken to really intrigued by how you align the culture. They've all got a good understanding of setting it, and all the keywords and the buzz words and different ways of setting it. But how do you actually bring it to life? How do you actually align people to believe in it? So that's always one. Environment’s very similar, but most companies, good companies have got a good environment. You know the obvious ones, people like talk about the, the open mind xxx of Google say, you know. You know, we've got this amazing way of working. It's all very freelance-ish feeling and yet you've got some of the top gurus in the world working there. A lot of the individual thing comes out. A lot of companies ask me about how do you deal with the people? As people. Forget about the job they’re doing. How do you deal with them as people? Because they always ask, cause obviously football’s very stressful. Football can be external stress - in fact often is. It’s fear of failure in front of thousands, millions, you know, of people…
JAKE: When you're 19 years old.
SEAN: Yeah, and Twitter, and all that sort of stuff.
JAKE: Right before we finish, we've got some quick fire questions. Three non-negotiable behaviours that you and everyone around you have to buy into to be part of the journey here?
SEAN: No nonsense in interviews, as in cans and hats, and one collar up and one collar down, and trendy sleeve turned up or down…
JAKE: I’m amazed that bothers you so much, how they dress, cause that's not going to win you three points, is it?
SEAN: It's important to show the image of what the team stand for. If there's millions of people watching my players on a screen, I expect them to respect the people viewing the screen. It might be old fashioned but I'm not really bothered. It's a non-negotiable. So don't wear cans, don’t wear… You know I saw someone do it… it's not fair to say. I saw someone doing an interview of the day with, you know, the ear pods? I think, are you kidding me? I'm telling you, one of my players walked up to me, speaking to me with ear pods in, I’d snatch em out of his ear and stamp em on the floor. I wouldn't really xxx. That would be going through my mind. I'd be like, you're actually going to have a conversation with me with ear pods in your ears. You haven't even thought I’d better take them out before I… That's not for me, that's just not for me. Um, I think professionalism, true professionalism, which means good, bads, good form, bad form, uh, bad day at the office, we stick to certain levels of what we believe is right for the team as well. You know, like professional respect, a different kind of respect, but professional respect. So self-respect is the first one. Professional respect will be the second.
JAKE: Lovely. And the third.
SEAN: Do you know what? A non-negotiable is a great attitude. Just, just, just everything you do, just be open-minded, work hard, give everything you can. In fact, that's probably number one. That's probably number one would be non-negotiable.
DAMIAN: What advice would you give to a teenage Sean starting out?
SEAN: I think, um, absorb more from the coaching staff. I mean not just listen. Absorb it. Actually think it through. I think that's a big one. Don't be, I was always the ‘but’ guy, so you’d tell me something, I’d go, but, which as we know negates what you just said. So I'd go right, shut your mouth, listen more, talk less. Yeah, them two things would be a good start point.
JAKE: How did you react to your greatest failure or your biggest disappointment?
SEAN: My biggest failure to use that word was at Bristol city. I moved down there for a few quid at the time, 375 grand, but that was first division, first xxx so that was quite a lot. Had a disaster off the pitch with injuries. I had a disaster on the pitch when I played, 15,000 singing “We want Dyche out”, and I was captain. Not the highlight of my career. But that's turned around my thinking of the truth and what it is. So now I don't fear that. If I get xxx never really bothered me, cause I’ve had it. So I go, yeah, actually, you know, the next day you know, you get up and you live and you carry on. xxx don't really bother me. I learned about myself. I learned about the manager and the coaches and how they dealt with that moment. I learned about the club and how they dealt with it. I learnt about fans, of course, the feedback from fans and now that changes. That period taught me more in my career and about me as well than I've ever learned in my life - then, and on reflection. Got through it, moved on and had more successes after that as a player than I did before it.
DAMIAN: Is legacy important to you?
SEAN: I think it is here, but I didn’t come here to build a legacy. I came here because we wanted to try and add to what was already here and make it successful. Now it's become somewhat a legacy because of all, what, this building, or the training ground and everything. So eventually we looked at that it was under my remit, not my remit, under my period that some of these things went on. As we've discussed, there's a lot more to it than just me. There's loads of people played massive parts in this, but I didn't come here to build a legacy or prove that I could build legacy. I just came here to try and be successful, and with that has become attached to it like some form of a legacy.
JAKE: And finally, for the people listening to this, the one golden rule that you would either live by or want to share with them for living a high performance life?
SEAN: I think be honest. Be honest with yourself, starts with yourself. Just tell yourself the truth. Take away the nonsense. Take away your ego, sometimes just think, no, hang on a minute. Cause your self-talk is really important. And be honest with others.