Dame Kelly Holmes MBE
Double Olympic Champion Col. Dame Kelly Holmes MBE is one of the UK’s most popular athletes. Kelly is an Olympic, Commonwealth and European champion that has achieved seven Gold, eight Silver and four Bronze medals throughout her career. This includes her double win in the 800m and 1500m at the 2004 Olympic Games in Athens, becoming the first Briton in over 80 years to do so.
Kelly won BBC Sports Personality of the Year, European Athlete of the Year and was honoured with a Damehood from the Queen. In 2018, Kelly was appointed Honorary Colonel of the Royal Armoured Corps making it the first time an individual has been appointed Honorary Colonel to a regular unit.
TRANSCRIPT
JAKE: … living a high performance life with somebody who suddenly is blushing. She conquered the world from the British military to the British Olympic team, today's guest though didn't stop at double Olympic glory. She went on to form foundations, to take part in TV shows, to write books, to become a Dame, to return to the military roots, and so much more. So what’s she learned along the way? And even if you can't run fast, how can her high performance life inspire you? Welcome to the podcast, Dame Kelly Holmes.
KELLY: Thank you! xxx that intro.
JAKE: There you go. Where do we go from there?
KELLY: That’s it. Done.
DAMIAN: And it’s Colonel Dame, isn’t it?
KELLY: Colonel now, yeah. Colonel of the Royal Armoured Corps. Which is really nice cause it, you realise how, so I was in the military for 10 years and then I continued my athletics career and then obviously been out for a while. But you realise, I look back now, and realise the values that I had from the army still instilled through my other role. So yeah, that courage and discipline and respect and self-commitment, all those things are very much what I, probably adhere too, of everything I do. Do it’s quite nice…
JAKE: Why did you feel the need to join the army at 18? What was the thinking behind that?
KELLY: Um, well I was not academic at all at school, at all. And so, you know, being in a classroom, getting exam results didn't happen. Uh, and what happened was, is I had a career officers came basically, and they showed us that the Army, Navy and the Air Force, and I wasn't inspired by the Air Force because of, you know, so the administration side. I couldn’t swim when I was 14 so ships at sea was not going to happen. And then I saw these soldiers, and they were just, all they were doing was just screaming and shouting at all the other soldiers - literally going underneath the scramble net and over the 12 foot wall. And I was like, Oh my God. And it felt like a sense of, if I could get into the army, I had proved I could be someone. And if I could get into the army it’d be about discipline and hard work. And I felt like I needed that structure almost when I was a young person. So yeah, so I tried to get in and I got in when I was 17 and 10 months old.
DAMIAN: So was that structure something that you've been lacking because your mum had you at a very young age, and then you were in foster care at certain times during …
KELLY: Care home, yeah.
DAMIAN: your childhood? Yeah, sorry, in the care homes. Was it the structure that appealed to you then? Or was there something other than that?
KELLY: Yeah, I think it was definitely structure. I just, I think I liked the intensity of what the army could bring cause it had the sporting element, but I didn't join for the sport. I did join to meet people, to be able to potentially travel, to actually have a career, cause I never know, I never heard the word university when I was a kid. I didn't have no idea about what I would do. And um, so my early, early days, actually I, you know, I got, I did my work experience at a local leisure centre, then I did some work over a local army barracks, and then I was a nursing assistant, which was completely random. But it was like helping people. And then I kind of just felt like that pull of army life would teach me about life and teach me to grow up quickly, and to do something that nobody else had done in my area, you know. All my friends stay local, you know, still doing the jobs that they were doing when they left school. I didn't want to stay local because I thought, well, what is there for me? It was in me to do and try something that no one else was doing to prove I could be good. I think it was more mindset for that.
DAMIAN: But your mum fascinated to me. So when I was reading up about your background, and I think I said in the introduction that my mum has a real soft spot for you in terms of, because I think she saw the vulnerability of you, but that courage to keep persevering. But that's very much the description that when I read about your mum. She was a, she was somebody that had endured some quite difficult times, but was that constant for you, and I was interested in terms of what traits did you feel you inhabited from her?
KELLY: Yeah. I used to sort of look and try and see, you know, I used to say, you’re my mother xxx xxx cos you and I are so different in one way. You know, I was so sporty, driven, you know, didn’t want to sit down. She was just like, Oh God, xxx that xxx. Um, but I think I took from her. So she had me when she was 17, um, you know, in the seventies when it was very taboo to be with a mixed race guy who she’d had me with. I didn't know, I didn't know him. And when we went back to Kent, she was told by her dad, my grandad, that she couldn't look after me until she could look after herself because she was, you know, 17, having a kid, bring back, whiter than white Kent. And so I then got put in the care home. But before that we were in mum and baby units, you know. She'd have her own flat. And then when, uh, the adoption services came, literally to take me away that day with a family - she had to sign the papers – but she refused to sign the papers. You know, I'm gonna make sure I get her back. So what I had, I know, is that fight, you know, that kind of no, if I wanna do something, I'm going to do it. And that I know that I've kind of picked up with her, that kind of resilience to, when you get against all odds, you can give up or you can go, I'm not going to give up. So I feel, you know, I'm really pleased that I've had that part of her in there. Anything to do with sport or anybody else there was nothing, there was nothing. Um, but yeah, so we had a very on and off relationship because when you're a teenager, you know, I grew up with my stepdad Mick since I was five, and then she sort of left him at 17 so I more got close to him rather than her. And then I went into the army and we didn't speak. And then you start getting back because she's your mum and I didn't know any other blood related people until I met my sister and brother when I was 16 in the supermarket. But hey, that’s another story.
JAKE: Wow, what a story.
KELLY: That’s another story. So yeah, so it's just those little, I suppose, elements of your background. So I think the key for me is I didn't feel I had a really good identity when I was younger. So I was in school in both my primary school, my secondary school, the only mixed race person. I didn't have any sense of how I could connect educationally. I think if they'd actually looked into it like they do now, I probably was dyslexic. You know, I couldn't read properly, I didn't write properly, all of those things. So I just had to go through life fighting to be good, and then of course, sport which I talk about became my driver, my identity. But back then, you know, I, I think I learned quite early on, and I don't know why, when you're different it doesn't mean you should then have that attitude that that's a negative. I always thought I'm different, so I'm unique. I don't want to be like everybody else. I want to stand out. So I had a different, in my head, you know, when you're in the middle of a group of white kids and you're the only brown person and Boney M Brown in the Ring comes on, you can take that two ways, right? When you're stuffed in the middle. You can either take it like, uh, they’re picking on you, or you can go, yes, tra-la-la-la-la, you know. And I was like, so I was like, yeah, I’m the sugar in the plum, plum, plum, you know. And I had that attitude really young and I'm really pleased that I did because I don't know any different.
JAKE: How useful has that been in the life that you’ve lived?
KELLY: Always, yeah, you know, to have an identity that actually, if you're different, doesn't matter.
DAMIAN: There is research on this that’s been done with sort of high performance - especially in the field of Olympians and sport - that that from trauma creates triumph, you know, like those difficult experiences give you some of the characteristics to then go on and perform at an elite level. How, how much would you identify with that, Kelly?
KELLY: Yeah, very much so. I mean, I suppose, I suppose maybe spokespeople have it embedded in. People say, is it nature or nurture? I mean probably an element of both, but I think somewhere you have to have it instilled in you to have that inner determination, that fight, you know, and that kind of, I'm going to go for it.
DAMIAN: Was there ever a moment where you decided you were going to take the fight option as opposed to being perceived as a victim?
KELLY: Just as a child. You know? I just think that I, you know, it's quite hard to comprehend because when you're a young person, how do you have those skills sets to do that? But I just felt like, all I knew back then was everybody that I see as we do now, everyone was white in front of me, so I never thought anything cause I can't see myself. So I just thought I was the same as everybody else. So it’s only ever people identifying that you're different, but skin color doesn't mean that inside you, how you're born, how you're brought up, how you're educated, what you're told, what you're taught, is different to that next person. I wasn't brought up in a Jamaican family or in a black environment. I don't know it. I have no connection, but it's hard to articulate that to people that don't understand it. Whereas in my youth it was just like they were all my mates. You know, we were just friends. So I think I was lucky that I didn't have that kind of, you know, hard hitting bullying or anything xxx when I was younger. So I think then I took that into secondary school where I just felt useless all the time. I was outside the classroom. I felt like I'm just a failure. No one give a shit because I was just like, you know, just the girl with no name, until athletics tickets hold, you know, and then suddenly I'm winning everything. You know, my peers, teachers saying like if you're going to be good, if you want to be good, you've got to start focusing and believing you can be good cause you're better than all of these at this. You might be outside of the classroom and you know, you’ve got to sort that out. But you're better than everybody here. And I was just like, Oh my God, somebody’s actually told me I can be good.
JAKE: So was sport the first time in your life that you experienced success?
KELLY: Yeah.
JAKE: At what age?
KELLY: In terms of a feeling. Within six months of starting running, I was All England School Champion when I was 13. But then I won the Mini Youth Olympic Games when I was 17, so I actually won a Gold medal in the 800 metres when I was 17 years old.
JAKE: You see, that is absolutely vital, isn't it? Because you've gone through, between 13, 14, 15 years, of being told you're different, being the only mixed race person in a white environment, being chucked out of classrooms, going into children's homes, wondering what your family history is, wondering whether you would ever have a relationship with your family, and then suddenly sport is the first moment where you go, wow, if that is what it feels like (a) to be successful, but also to be celebrated by other people…
KELLY: Yeah. It was amazing.
JAKE: So if you look at it like that, no wonder that then determined your life because suddenly you related sport to feeling like you've never felt before.
KELLY: Absolutely. I mean when I won that first English Schools Championships, xxx to me as I came back and there was all this bunting outside the house – you know, the old fashioned bunting - I've got pictures of it somewhere, you know, like a, a piece of white paper with a handwritten ‘Welcome Home, Kelly’ type thing. And there’s me and my stepdad outside with a big Afro, and then people just like, you know, those little things. Just like xxx. And then sport literally took up my life because we didn't have a bus to go to school. So I used to cycle to school, do whatever at school, cycle to training, do training, and come back. That was my life as a teen. I didn't go out partying, didn’t go out with mates. I went round their house may be a couple of times. I loved it.
JAKE: So where did that mindset come from?
KELLY: I loved winning. Watching the Olympic games when I was 14, I watched Sebastian Coe win the 1500 metres, and I was…
DAMIAN: This is the ’84 right?
KELLY: yeah, ’84, yeah I’m that old - eighty four Olympic Games – Sebastian Coe won the 1500 metres. I was already a 1500 metre runner by then. I literally got goosebumps inside me, like in my core, and I went back to school and told my best friends - Kerry, Lara and Kim – I am gonna be Olympic champion. And they said, yes, you probably are because that's the only thing you’re bloody good at. Which was true. Um, but it was just that moment of wow, I love the whole thing about the Olympics, you know, kind of, the Olympic rings, what it meant, you know, the history of it, seeing success, people on a rostrum, national Anthem playing, British flag flying, like, medal winner necklace, like, Oh my God. You know, I just felt it. It was just something like literally went through my body. And I knew that day that's what I wanted to be.
DAMIAN: But you used a lovely phrase before - or quite a moving phrase, sorry – where you said about, I was the girl with no name. And how much of it was just having someone know your name that was the appeal of that.
KELLY: Yeah. All of it. Just having like that you're here, you know, I always believe that one person can change somebody's life. Mine was my PE teacher. You know. We're still friends to this day. It's my PE teacher, because it was her that actually said to me, Kelly, you can be good. Just having an identity is so important. You know, for anybody - knowing where they're going to go, what they're going to do, what they want to do, finding passion. I feel lucky that I had the upbringing that I had. Lucky that I had those feelings inside me at a very young age, you know. Cause two dreams was to be in the army, as a physical training instructor, and to be Olympic champion. And I've done both. You know, who else at 14 can actually say that I had these dreams, they were going to take xxx, they were the fluffy card up there, they might have taken 20 years for one of them, you know. And however many for the other one, but I did it. So actually everything before that period of time was probably that little bit of grounding - fight for it. If you want it, don't give up. When you're an adult, you start thinking about all the little incidences that have happened along the way where you could have just given up. You could have cried, you could have said, I'm not good enough yourself. You could have listened to what people said, but I believe that that, to become Olympic champion that I did, was some of the traits from being young, thinking, no, I'm gonna do this. You can't, you think I can't. I'm going to. But that was in sport. That's the only thing I knew I could do it in. I couldn't do anything else.
DAMIAN: I remember reading that you produced your training diary in the 1st of January, 2004 and there was a really moving passage where you wrote about I’ve sacrificed so much to get to this and I just want a year where I can get through it without injury and setback, to be able to go and achieve my destiny was the phrase you used. How much did you ever go to the trouble of reflecting backwards and writing down all those obstacles you'd overcome to give you that sense of confidence?
KELLY: Well as an athlete I wrote my diaries every single year. Still have my ones from when I was 13. So I wrote diaries…
DAMIAN: You were doing that at 13 as well then?
KELLY: Yeah, just writing, well just notes about xxx, like how I felt, or…
JAKE: Where did that come from then, cause that’s very smart to do that when you, when you talk about the fact that really everything was a bit of a struggle apart from the sport. So how did you suddenly apply such a kind of smart scientific approach to your sport?
KELLY: Cause I loved it, I loved it, you know. Literally it was my life back then. So everything, I wanted to be Olympic champion. You can't just turn up an be an Olympic champion.
JAKE: Who told you that then? That you can’t just turn up and be Olympic champion.
KELLY: Cause I knew that to, to be able to get into Olympic games you'd have to break two minutes, you know. I was running two fifty something as a kid, you know, it’s like, this isn't… So I knew it was a long term piece. But I suppose within, so that diary referred to with the 2004, when I wrote that passage in the diary which I then put in my own biography, it was really about everything that I felt. Like I just kept thinking I was xxx at this time, I thinking everything was knocking me back. So basically in 2003, for listeners don’t know, during my career I was already 12 years as an international athlete, I'd left the army, when I was 27. I'd been in there for 10 years. Um, I had just a massive breakdown, like literally to the point that I didn't want to be here anymore, and I was in a training camp getting ready for a World Championships. I’d already been injured for many years, but won lots of medals, you know. I was having highs and lows for all these years fighting back. No-one knew the story behind half of my medals. I'd be on a track, I’d get Silver or a Bronze, and people were like, Oh, xxx Silver or Bronze. It wasn't, you know, it wasn't champion. Just like, you have no idea, I shouldn't have even been at this track, you know. There's all those things that was happening. This period of time I was getting ready for World Champs, we were in a camp, and I went into the bathroom and basically broke down crying inside, screaming inside, you know, when you see somebody in pain, you see their heart breaking but you can't shout it out cause people are outside. Saw some scissors, starting to cut myself, became a self-harmer that day. Didn't know anything about self-harming, didn't know about depression, didn't know about breakdown, did not want to be there. I mean how I didn't do something else was because I still had a dream. I try to articulate on stage. And half of you is actually dying inside, and half of you wants to be successful and driven. That's the hardest fight. It's not necessary the fight of what you're doing because at that time it's red mist, black dog, black hole, tunnel, whatever. But I had such something inside me, I always believed I’d be Olympic champion. I don’t know what it was. Even through the depths of despair, even through the injuries I had - ruptured calves, torn Achilles, you know, stress fractures, glandular fever all in my international career, I always woke up thinking I'm going to be Olympic champion. And I don't know why that was. I always believe in fate. I mean you know there’s a big thing in fate. I believe that went through the journey, could have given up, didn't. But I get two Gold medals, you know, so – pay back.
JAKE: There's your reward.
KELLY: You know, but yeah, there’s little things which make you as a high performer because we’re all so different. I think something different in an individual sport has to be some resolve inside you that can go through a pain barrier, and that's whether that's physical or emotional, that kind of can push to that next limit, push to see how far you can get, push to know where you can take yourself. And I think I just kept pushing those little milestones and obviously the breakdown was because I’d never really reflected on everything before. It's a different era, back then. You know, you didn't talk about mental health. When you went to, on a physio bed, they’re treating injury.
JAKE: Did you feel it coming, the breakdown? Did you, did you sense it was on its way?
KELLY: No, because I just coped with the highs and lows for so long, you know, it was almost like I was going through the same old routine, you know. I'd get injured, fight through it, get back, get a medal, get injured, fight through it. It was just like normal. It was becoming, like, xxx sakes, give me a break.
JAKE: When you talk about going through a breakdown for people that haven't suffered with mental health problems, is it you wake up in the morning and something happens and that’s it? The breakdown has happened? Is it an instantaneous moment?
KELLY: I think so. The, I think the actual breakdown part is…
JAKE: Do you remember where you were?
KELLY: Yeah, I was in France. I was in our apartment and I went into the toilet because I had another little niggle, and I just literally exploded. I mean, I can't explain anymore. Looked in the mirror and everything inside me was just like this explosion of hatred, emotion, disappointment. I felt like somebody was literally wanting me to fail, like literally saying, you're not going to do this, and I just couldn't cope. And I think then that's the point is you can have a, you have a bad day, can have stress, anxiety, you can have depression, we can have all of those emotions, we could just have a bad day. But the moment you have a breakdown that's a different thing. I think there's a chemical imbalance that’s just gone and broken, you know. And I was broken.
DAMIAN: But in hindsight is there anything that you think you could, any steps you could have taken before you reached that moment of breakdown?
KELLY: Maybe in sport people recognising that emotional roller coaster. Because when you give your life to sport, there's no guarantees it there? You know, I had, remember I had a secure job, I had a pay packet each month, I had status in the army as a Sergeant by then. I knew my roles, my expectations. I was comfortable with that. When I left I was putting all my eggs in one basket to become Olympic champion. So what happens then is that every time you're doing something you don't want negative around you. You don't want somebody saying you can't achieve because I'm thinking I've got to get to the next games. You know, you have Commonwealth Games, the European Champs, the World Champs, and Olympics in that four year cycle. So every year to prove that you're one of the best in the world, you've got to be at that championships and you've got to win a medal, you know, so you can't just go, I'm not going to go this year. It's like, no, there's no ‘no’, there's no ‘not’. You know, and being paid as an athlete, you only ever get paid if you get a sponsor or if you compete. I was injured so many times on the circuit I didn't get paid to run because I was injured so much, so I'm putting everything in. The medal was never about money for me, never about fame, never about anything. It was about purely proving to myself I can be good from back in the day. I didn't even care about the money at that stage. But you're putting your life into a dream.
JAKE: So did you mention your breakdown to anyone in British athletics?
KELLY: So in two thousand and … No, no, no, didn't mention to anyone, didn’t know how to. How do you explain that you've just gone through something you don't know you've had?
JAKE: We talk often on this podcast about fault versus responsibility. You are the epitome of fault versus responsibility because it wasn't your fault that you went into care homes. It wasn't your fault you didn't know your family. It wasn't your fault that you weren't bright at school and you suffered with dyslexia. It wasn't your fault that you had a nervous breakdown. But through every single step of the way, you have to take on the responsibility. And I think it's such a strong message for people listening to this that you can't live a life of blame and live a life of looking at fault, live a life of being a victim. You have, no matter how bad it gets, and you know you’re talking about, you know, contemplating the ultimate act and self-harming. No matter how bad it gets, trying to find a mindset of responsibility is so important.
KELLY: No, it really is, and I think if people listening get to those stages, I've always had this thing around how do you turn a negative into a positive? Because I think there's always positives into anything that we do. So even at the brink of having a breakdown, if in one side of me saying, but you know, haven't given up on my athletics yet, I’m still, this is why I've got to that point, my dream is still to come. I was able to change that mindset through one bit, even though I’m emotionally still suffering because you're a human being. As a sports person, having the ability to snap into where's those positives? And I think when I was at the depths of despair, I kept thinking, this is cause I want so much, you know. I could give up. I could give up tomorrow. Why am I going through this? I want this so badly. Only I can do that now. So I can pick myself up. And I used to think to myself, especially back then, I looked back and go, so I've won. Up until that point I'd won nine major medals, right? And six years of those had been in, having injuries. Yet I still come back with medals. I then go at the lowest of the low, I'm getting ready for World Championships and I win a Silver medal at that World Championships, and I xxx xxx with that round my neck. No one knew what was going on. No one knew what was happening each night, what I was going through. And that, you take as a stroke for character. So I think some people have to remember you’ve always had happiness somewhere in their life. They've always had things they know they can do. They’ve always had experience that have been great and good. So when you're at that depth of despair, there's a reason why you've got to that point. You know, there's always a reason why we have a breakdown. There's always a reason why we go to, people go to drugs, alcohol, self-harming, the way I did - cutting. There's a reason for it. So I knew at that time, my reason was I was hard on myself because I wanted to be good, that's throughout my whole life. Hard on myself because I believed that Olympic dream was gonna come, and I didn't refuse to give up on it. You're the only person, no one else around you, the only person that have lived through that if only I did. So when you say about this kind of responsibility stuff, and you mentioned about, did anyone help you, in 2004, at the beginning, in January I set up a mentoring program called um, “On Camp with Kelly”. And what this program was, it was to help junior athletes learn what it takes to become world-class, but everything, not just the running round the track, cause you’re running round the track you’re on my program, if you're good enough, anyway. It was, can you go through hard times? Can you go through people putting you down? Can you go through the pressures of education with your mates going out partying and you've got the talent they haven't, but their coercing you to go off to there. And I was like, I'm going to tell, teach you everything it's taken me to get to where I've got. This is before I won my two Gold medals. So I selected eight girls, was going to take them South Africa in the October, can you imagine, they're going with an international athlete, a middle distance runner, to South Africa. Then I won two Gold medals, and I came back and everyone said to me, there’s no way you're going to take those eight girls, you know, I had all these jobs open to me, I could be doing everything. And I went, do you know what, my biggest value, of everything I've learned is to take these girls to South Africa now I've gone through highs, lows, success. And I took them to South Africa for a month, 15, 16, 17 year olds. I had two sort of helpers, and in the end that program developed 65 international athletes. And these girls all stuck to their sports. They transitioned because it was about what does it take to achieve in your life, what you want to achieve. It takes everything. It takes hard times, it takes tears, it takes xxx, hard work, commitment, dedication, people putting you down. It takes all of those, doesn't it? So be good, you know.
DAMIAN: So, here’s a question then, Kelly. So if I was one of those young girls, um, turning up on this camp, what would you give me as a proportionality of how much of your success was down to pure talent, your ability to run fast and things that, and how much of it was down to all the other stuff, the ability to cope with those issues that you've just talked…
KELLY: 20% of talent because there's so many talented people, and then 80% of going through everything else to get there. If I go on a track at Olympic Games, you know, nought point nought fifth of a second separated the first four of us in the 800 metres. We were all bloody good runners, you know. Had I given up I wouldn't have been part of that four. You know, so actually there's that inner bit, the belief and your ability to push and to trust yourself. There's so many times, I’d probably say in my whole career only four times out of 12 years that I have that totally in the zone where I felt like I'm floating, you know. Two of those at the Olympics, and one was in breaking the British record in ’97 - 1500 metres - and one was in Sydney when I was told there's no way I'm going to get there. I'd got a 12 centimetre tear in my calf in the January. I was told by everyone that at thirty you're not gonna get there. You know, you might as well just carry on wait for the next kind of season to come. And I'd already gone to the first Olympics when I was serving in the British Army, and I ended up getting a stress fracture. I still ran. I got into the heat semifinal, I came forth, I got pipped on the line by tenth of a second, running with a stress fracture. Right? I had injections into the bone site to numb it. Was emotionally in pain, physically in pain. I said to myself, I'm not going to my next Olympics xxxx don’t come back with a medal. Told I wasn't going to get there, had six weeks of running only that year. Everything else in a pool, a stepper, cross trainer, bike, everything, weights, training. My head was like, I am gonna do this. I got there and I got a Bronze medal.
DAMIAN: It's fascinating hearing you describe that - Sydney Games - cause I remember that. But those two events where you won the Gold in, uh, in Athens, like, the way I remember it is there was a real sense of calmness about you during the race. Because I remember you, like, tactically you let others go off and you just sat and you held your ground and then you came in and had a strong finish. When did you learn that emotional control though it was obviously lacking in Sydney to panic at that moment to then four years later come and be so serene?
KELLY: I had a totally different mindset going in 2004 because what had happened to me 2003, like totally. I just knew that the only thing that was letting me down was my body - and health. So you know, because I've xxx to all these other things. So I'd said, so instead of telling people around me the emotional side what’s happening, I said xxx my physio, I need you to be the best physio you can be. I want to be the best in the world. You're already a good physio, but you need to be great, like almost like it was selfish. I said, you need to live my life, you know. I need to be stalking you. That's literally what I did. Training partner who was a guy who gave up his athletics career that year, Anthony Whiteman, he’s a 1500 metre running for Great Britian, he was lacking in motivation, kind of wanted a bit of a kick up the arse, and I said like, would you come and train with me? And then prior to, um, Athens, we were in a holding camp in Cyprus. And because he was a man, he was faster. I could just run xxx the times. And he did. And quickly the story goes on that after Athens he them broke the world record for the men's over forties, uh, 1500 metres and become world record holder for the mile, you know?
DAMIAN: You raised the bar for him, as well.
KELLY: Raised the bar for him. So what I did, in 2004 I didn’t feel at that time I could get any lower than I've been. And because I was still there, that made me even more thinking I can do this, you know. Because I can't go any lower. Yet I'm still achieving, you know. So I changed my mindset. Hence why I wrote that bit in my book. And then so what happened was I decided that I needed my legs to do the talking because when you go in sport and you’re recognised, you end up getting, especially in your own sport, people want to know how's it going. Papers all after you, comes to Olympic gear, they try put people up on a pedestal. And I just thought, I don't want that. Do you know what? The only thing that's going to actually make me feel good is me – being good. So I ended up not doing any media that year till right before the Olympic Games. Paula Radcliffe was put on the pedestal, you know. Everyone was, she was going to be our golden girl, which actually helped everybody else cause no-one else was interested in us. Do you know what I mean? So then what happened was there's a change around was, that I had a different attitude to high performance, like. I knew I could do this. You know when you've won that many medals with that many setbacks, it's like for me fate, and staying injury free. So anyway, what happened was, is I went to World Championships, fell in the indoors, and I thought, hum, hum, like banging down the xxx, and I thought that’s alright, it’s just a blip. And I changed my attitude to feeling like everything's against me to feeling, pick yourself back up. You’re not injured, go and …
JAKE: You took responsibility.
KELLY: … and took responsibility, took responsibility of my team. I said, this is what I expect from you. This is what I know I want to do and what I can do. And then we got to holding camp. Training was like literally going off the roof. But I'd lost every single 1500 metre run that year, and I'd won every single 800, and that was a psychological thing. I was wanting 1500 metres so bad I run pants. 800 I didn't think I was going to take part. It’s like running how I should. And that's how your brain, you know, if you're good at anything, one minute we can do it, the next minute it's like we feel like we’re useless at something cause we haven't clicked that brain in the switch up. So anyway, I get to the Olympic Games, training has gone brilliant, hadn't been injured for the xxx of the year. I was eating better, sleeping better, happy, relaxed and I could run. And then when we got to the 800 metres, cause I only decided that I was going to do both like two days before I went into Athens cause I thought well what have I got to lose? If I come back with two medals of any colour – what a great end to a season. I had a completely different approach. It wasn't all, I've got to, I've got to, I've got to. I almost took that off of me a bit, the pressure, and said run how you run.
DAMIAN: That's a question that I wanted to ask you when you were talking about that, being in that bathroom in France. Do you feel you could have achieved more if you'd have started to be kinder to yourself much earlier?
KELLY: Mm, yeah. I mean I could have won those in my first Olympic Games when I come forth in xxx. I could have won in Sydney but I was always under pressure almost because of the injuries and then putting myself through that, gotta get back, gotta to get back. I never reflected. You know, you don't reflect. When you're on a physio bed, it's all about get that injury sorted, get that injury sorted. No-one really sort of took you on onboard and said, okay, so you are going through an injury. This is going to impact your anxiety. This is gonna impact the stress that you're feeling. You're gonna be worried. You're gonna this. You're going to be that. It's not just about the injury. Never had those conversations.
JAKE: You also, that was an era though where it was all about, be brilliant, push yourself, be the best, don't be weak. No one in that era was kind to themselves.
KELLY: No.
JAKE: That was seen as a weakness, I think, in that era, wasn't it? Now we're much more open to, if you're good to yourself, mentally you, that's not weakness anymore.
KELLY: Well, in 2003 no one talked about it. When I wrote my autobiography, nobody was talking about it. In 2005 I hadn’t even told my mum, friends, family. No one even knew about what was going on in my life up until I wrote my book the year after I retired - not one person.
JAKE: Your phone goes xxx when the book comes out, I imagine.
KJ: Then it goes mental, but then you know, how many people remember me on front pages of the national newspaper saying I’d self-harmed, hardly anyone. Because it was just like fish and chip paper, xxx said something, lets, you know, next day has gone. And then it’s only sort of 2017 when I was on a TV show that were talking about it again, and everyone's going, Oh my God, really? And I said, yeah, I've been talking about it since 2005. You're now listening. And the sport has now changed. Sport is also changed at a high level. Instead of just having a sports psychology focus where it's about can I get to that track without feeling nervous, sick, you know, can’t get there properly and I need somebody to guide me through it, and now know that they need to talk beforehand about the process of how you're gonna get through that journey.
DAMIAN: Where do you draw the line in terms of, you share the lot of this around your mental health and I think that it’s a real testament to you, because there's a real vulnerability in what you're sharing, but I think it's really helpful. But then I've been interested that you draw the line at some things where you just won't discuss it and that's not for debate. And I’m just interested in terms of where you choose to draw the line in terms of what you share versus what you keep private, and what advice would you give to some of those young athletes that were listening?
KELLY: Yeah. Well for anybody really. I mean we live our own lives and it's only us that we are living our life for essentially, you know. Might have family and friends and people around us, but essentially it's our life, right? We’ve all got this inner ability to want to be good at something or to drive. And I feel like when I share anything to do with the journey of athletics and the emotion and the breakdown in that that's a human trait that lots of people will come across barriers and setbacks, like when I talked about bereavement, with my mum, no-one talks about these things. But why? You’re not happy just because they're now, but you know, had the funeral, it’s still f***ing in you. And I grieved for 18 months. I was in a right state. I believe that there's things that will help people by me sharing those things. There's other things, but I've chosen that most people know me because I won two Gold medals, right? They don't know me for any other reason really apart from what now they're getting to know. But essentially most people know me cause I won two Gold medals. So I believe, how do I inspire people, not just athletes, anybody, to get the best out of themselves, to be the best version of themselves, to work hard, to be motivated, to take responsibility, to look at yourself, be respectful, be respectful, have values. If I can pass those, that's going to help a lot other people with their mindset on expectation that they should get something back for it. Or actually it should be given to you easy or what’s an easy way to get to success. No, it's f***ing not. So I'd share my life and my journey and what happened to me during those heights of my season because most people have no idea that I went through that. Yet I then go, even if you've had the worst time, real life ups, downs, barriers, whatever they perceive to be in your life, and remember, never, never, ever, um, compare yourself to someone else's life. You know, because what I've had happen to me, might not ever be as bad as somebody else, but I'm not living their life, I'm living mine. So what I’ve had, have happened to me is was hell for me. And I always believe if I can articulate that in a way that's motivating, that people can look at their life and go, okay, this might be happening or happen, but I can actually do something else with it. Or I can take the positives out of the negatives, see other people still being successful, even though they've had bad time, that has to be something that's motivates others. So I've chosen that is the line that I go - all about me and my drive and the emotional side of it that I think will impact a larger people in society.
DAMIAN: I love the clarity of where you choose to draw the line now. I think it's really powerful in this day and age that there's some things you'll discuss, and there’s some you won’t, and you defend that.
KELLY: And be, yeah, and people have a decision to do it when they want, and you know, as I've got older, I never used to speak about anything close to me, like nothing, ever. I was a closed book, like literally, always been a closed book. And now I'm a bit more me, I show my personality more on TV. I look how I wanna look now. I don't conform, you know, you come back from the Olympic Games and everyone's going to these events. You know, everyone's got, women got long hair, they're all in their dresses. And I still wear dresses if I want to dress up, or whatever, but I felt like I didn't really, again, know my identity. My mum passed away. The day she passed away I had this hair shaved off - my undercut - cause I'd been speaking about it for ages, and I thought, shall I?, shan’t I? What’d people think? What’d people say, what will people think I look like? And I thought I don't care, because actually I’ve still got my values. I’m still respectful. I still am me as a person, but I want to be who I actually want to be, so I'll show it in this way, but I don’t have to then speak about every single part of my life.
JAKE: There's a book by a man called Bob Iger, CEO of Disney, and in it he talks about the fact that being completely you, 100% honest in everything you say and everything you do, not putting on a front in any respect is almost like a superpower. And once you’re brave enough to go, this is me, if you don't like it, fine, but this is me and that's all I can be, it's a really liberating place to get to, I think. And I'm so pleased that you feel that you're there and ...
KELLY: Well, I feel that I’m there, you know. There's still things that I wouldn't choose to discuss, but that's just because you just why, why… you know, at what point? You might get to a part in your life at a certain situation, it’s like when I started to speak about this, it was a point in my life, it was right. Other things that I've come through, I've, there's a point in my life that is right. The bereavement, I had to go through that, and now I talk about bereavement. I didn't when my granddads and my nans died because it didn't have that same thing. There'd be a point in my lifetime, somewhere else that something else will come out because I think it's right. But at the moment you don't have to shout. Anyone can do what they want in life. If you want to shout about something, shout. If you don't, don't.
JAKE: And finally, having waited so long, did it feel how you hoped it would feel when you crossed the line and won the Gold?
KELLY: Oh my gosh. Yeah. Even more than more than that. A huge weight came off my sh… I felt on the 1500 metres, this ton weight, literally, fly up off my shoulders as I was going round. Literally felt the thing. And I sat in the press conference, it was just before the four by one men won the Gold medal for Great Britain, and I said, now I can now be me. That’s literally my words.
JAKE: So powerful. Listen, we always finish with some real quick five questions.
KELLY: Oh God. I don’t like these. I can never think
JAKE: Three non-negotiable behaviours that you and the people around you must buy into.
KELLY: Um, be kind. Don't judge somebody before you know them and um, be respectful.
DAMIAN: What advice would you give a teenage Kelly - just starting out?
KELLY: Actually, I, if I was writing the book to her, I would tell her that you're going to go through shit, hell, life, but don't give up because you’re still, you know, whatever you go through is going to be the making of you. I always used to say, and this is not quickfire. I used to, I used to think that the Olympic Games was my destiny. I do not believe that now. I believe it's my journey. I think my destiny is to talk authentically to people about that period and all the things I've gone through to help somebody else.
JAKE: How important is legacy?
KELLY: Legacy is important when it's talked about in the right way, at the right time. Legacy's only through history and proof and things working not just because of, you know, something happens. Example 2012, you know, everyone said legacy. Well legacy is only now be getting proven cause somebody might have run there in 2012 or been inspired by 2012 and then you can say there's a legacy.
DAMIAN: And what's your one golden rule for our listeners that want to live a high-performance life?
KELLY: Believe in yourself.
JAKE: That is the perfect way to end. Listen, thank you so much for coming on.
KELLY: Thank you.
JAKE: For being so honest and sharing your story that I know a lot of people still won't be fully across and they won't fully understand. And then hearing you sit here and talk about it in such an honest way, I think it is without doubt going to do exactly what you want, which is to help people. And when you talk about as an athlete, 80% is in your head and 20% is in your body, I think that is something that isn't just about athletics. That is about life, and it's a great message.
KELLY: Thank you.