Marcelino Sambé

Portuguese dancer Marcelino Sambé is a Principal of The Royal Ballet. At just 25-years old, he already proved himself to be one of the most technically accomplished and inspiring stars in the world of dance, excelling in some of ballet’s trickiest roles – all delivered with his characteristic smile and optimism.

Born in a poor area on the outskirts of Lisbon, his father died when he was 8 and his guidance came from his local community centre.

Marcelino is only the second black dancer ever to make the Royal Ballet’s top tier following on from Carlos Acosta.

TRANSCRIPT

Jake [00:00:11] Hi there, I'm Jake Humphrey, and you're listening to High Performance, the podcast that delves into the minds of some of the most successful athletes, visionaries, entrepreneurs and artists on the planet that aims to unlock the very secrets to their success. And you can't do a job like this alone. Thankfully, Damian Hughes professor, lecturer, author, superbrain is alongside me. And the two of us are doing this interview in central London. And we're meeting a man whose story is, I suppose, in many ways a fairy tale, just the second black male after Carlos Acosta to reach the rank of principal dancer with the Royal Ballet. Not only that, his story started in a poor suburb of Lisbon in Portugal, when you also consider he lost his father as a young age. He went into foster care. I think the rare beauty of his story really becomes apparent. I think we're as excited as each other about doing this interview. I know I've been buzzing all day about this. What are you looking forward to hearing about?

Damian [00:01:04] Yeah, I'm incredibly excited about our next guest, Jake, because when I was reading about him, it reminded me of a story of seminal moments of, a lady called Gillian Lynne, who was Andrew Lloyd Webber's choreographer. So she choreographed Cats and all of his big shows. And she tells the story that when she was a young girl growing up, her teachers often felt that she was restless or she couldn't behave or sit still in class. And her parents took her to a doctor and the doctor asked the parents to step outside the surgery. And when they left the room, he turned the radio up slightly. And then when her parents are outside he asked them to look back in. And Gillian was twirling and pirouetting around the doctor's surgery and the doctor said to her parents 'She's got nothing wrong with her. She's just a dancer and she needs to be in an environment where she's liberated.' And I think those seminal moments in life where we could really explore and get into some really fascinating areas with our next guest.

Jake [00:02:00] Well, I think we will. Because while you were telling your lovely story, our guest today was nodding his head and smiling. So it obviously rings some bells. Welcome to the podcast.

Marcelino [00:02:08] Hello. Hi. Nice to meet you. Thanks for having me.

Jake [00:02:12] So nice to meet you. Let's kind of get straight into it and ask you whether what Damian's just described there does ring bells for your own experience.

Marcelino [00:02:21] Absolutely. You know, when I first discovered dance it was almost like a breath of fresh air. Suddenly I found myself. Suddenly I understood what my legacy could be and what I was in this world.

[00:02:31] Because for a long time, I always felt like an outsider. A bit of an outsider. I didn't like what other boys of my age liked. Maybe I was a bit different and just always full of energy - ADHD that's what a lot of people call it. But I was never really quiet and I wasn't I wasn't the best student or I couldn't focus very much. So that the teachers couldn't never really place me on ever really gave me credit for being a good student. So I always thought I was a bit like a bit of a naughty child until I actually was able to join this incredible community centre in, where I come from in Paço de Acros in Portugal, Lisbon. And there was a dance group there, an African dance group. And obviously being part of a neighbourhood where most people are immigrants from Africa, different countries of Africa. I always felt that it was very important to be part of something that really would connect me with my father coming from Guinean, you know. So when I started doing African dance, I do remember my dad being quite proud, which is kind of a weird thing to say that a dad is proud of a boy doing ballet, dance or something. But he was it was because he was I was doing something of my roots, something African, something cool. So when I, when I discovered that I loved dancing, suddenly I knew what my place was in the world. And suddenly I felt important. For the first time, I felt special. And that is something that really carried until now with me, it has stayed with me.

Jake [00:03:58] But it's one thing to find something you love and to feel special. It's another thing to make it all the way to be the principal dancer at the Royal Ballet, which is without question one of the most prestigious roles in dance anywhere in the world. So there's obviously more to you than just being a dancer. Because to get to this point, you have had to make sacrifices. You've had to dedicate you've had to work hard. We were discussing before we started recording that really away from the stage, you live the life really of a professional sportsperson.

Marcelino [00:04:28] Yeah, it's I mean, it's a huge journey. So you start training, I started my training when I was around eleven, which is not the earliest because some boys and girls had been doing classical training when they're four.

Jake [00:04:40] Wow.

[00:04:40] And so I started late, but obviously I was a very active child, I did African dance and as well as part of my curriculum of stuff that I was doing at the community centre. Athletics was another one, I did hurdles. So I turned a lot of my flexibility and my strength, also I was muscular ready. Like, my physique was kind of ready starting ballet. So when I decided to start doing ballet, my adaptation was huge.

[00:05:02] Huge, because obviously the muscles for ballet are very specific. You have to rotate them your turn out from the hips. And control from your abs and everything, you just feel like you locked, you know, repressed for the first year that you're starting. Because it's just rule after rule after rule. Nothing is right. You have to always keep striving for more. So from the beginning, I understand that it wasn't going to be easy, you know. Although I had the talent and physical shape to do it. It was going to be a complex process.

[00:05:29] But I had such incredible support from the beginning. People understood that, OK, yeah I might not be the most focussed person, but I work hard, you know, and I want to learn. So the first few years were weren't easy to learn about.

[00:05:43] Technique is very hard because as well as physical as it is psychological, you know, you have to really be focussed and understand.

[00:05:52] So I mean, to get here, it's a huge journey. I can tell you. But to become then a principal after all this time has been almost like an incredible reward.

Jake [00:06:02] So where did work ethic come from?

Marcelino [00:06:04] OK. Yeah.

[00:06:05] So I think to be a dancer, you know that you can't be a dancer and you can't be successful without that work ethic. Because even when it started at age 11, which is kind of late, you would come to school at seven o'clock in the morning, do an hour rehearsal of like, well, not rehearsal, but class of pillattes or diatonic or something to strengthen you. And this is at age 11. You know, it's it's unheard of. You have to wake up so early.

Jake [00:06:27] I struggle to get my daughter to do 20 minutes of schoolwork.

Marcelino [00:06:30] And guess what? I used to get to myself at school alone. Nice to get on a train alone and go all the way to the central Lisbon to do this.

Jake [00:06:36] What?

Marcelino [00:06:36] Yeah. Yeah. For my first three years before I was adopted. But yes, so I did this started at seven and then after that you have a ballet class which is two hours. So ballet class for a kid at eleven years old is really boring, guys.

[00:06:49] You start on the floor and do painful krumping, exercise of your toes and then your arches and then all the work all the way to your body until you get to the bar. And start doing bar exercises, which is what all the little kids want to do. And then after the bar you do the centre and then little jumps. So this goes for two hours and you have the teacher telling you, come in and squeeze your toes and jump higher. And it's it's it's crazy when you think about it.

[00:07:14] Then after that you have contemporary class, which is trying to a little bit to break that stiffness that comes with doing ballet training. And then after we have choreography class where you learn how to be a bit more creative. And then you have maths, Portuguese and then later in the day you might have stretch class for like two hours. So it was a full, I learned about full days from the age of 11.

[00:07:35] And that's like everybody else that wants to become a real professional. And it never changes. I mean, I still get up at nine o'clock in the morning and do an hour, an hour and a half warm-up before I do the ballet class. And then a full day of rehearsals from tweleve to six thirty. If there's no performance. And if there is a performance, we finish at five thirty and then start the performance at seven thirty seven, so we have a two hour break to rest, eat, put the makeup on, rewarm-up and then the show. Then finish at eleven. So it's, it's full on.

Damian [00:08:06] But what fascinates is the story of the environment that you came from. So your community where you first went to the dancehall and then to take the train and make that commitment.

[00:08:19] What was the response from your family unit, your friends in that community when you started down this route?

Marcelino [00:08:26] So my family was going through a process of huge change. My dad got very sick and then he ended up dying.

Damian [00:08:36] And how old were you then?

Marcelino [00:08:38] I was nine. So this is before I had the proper training. And so those years were coming up to go into join the concert. It was very difficult because my mum really wasn't coping well with her health as well and with the fact that she had two kids to provide for and she wasn't working. So it was all very like a very complex time for me to get into something.

[00:09:00] So in our eyes, elites and, you know, like in those times I thought it was so. And but when the opportunity came up, my family was so eager for me to take it and to really do something of myself because I was going to the centre of Lisbon. Because I come from the more of the coast a bit outside of sort of like a suburb. And I had never even gone to Portugal to the centre of Lisbon until I did the audition. So that day wasn't even about me doing audition, it was about me being in the centre of this. You know, I just wanted to see the electrics and the incredible architecture and the colour.

[00:09:35] So when the psychologist that took me to this audition, when she took me to the centre of Lisbon, I felt a huge sense of responsibility and thought like, 'Oh, my God, this is not just for me. This is for the community I come from this for my mum to provide.' So I had a huge weight on my shoulders. And when everything went well, it was incredible. But I think it was the committee felt very inspired that I was stepping far and I was waking up very early in the morning.

Damian [00:10:04] So they were supportive of you.

Marcelino [00:10:04] Very supportive. And the community centre made sure that I kept on the right track. They helped me buy the materials that I need.

[00:10:10] You know, food. Provided me with food.

Damian [00:10:12] And how much of it, like your journey into dance, how much of it were you conscious of it was an escape from some of the trauma that was happening in your own personal life?

Marcelino [00:10:24] Huge. Huge. And the fact that I had such a huge support as well, like I did always feel like that was getting not this special treatment, but I was being taken care of. And that's something for me that I needed. You know, I needed some my teachers to look at me and say, like, you know, 'You got something big here. You have talent and we are going to be here for you no matter what.' And suddenly I felt like this is this is my place. You know, this is where I'm going to be able to to grow and become a better person and to help the next generation, you know, and I still feel like that I'm still that same little boy - he will never leave me. It's crazy, but he will never.

Damian [00:10:59] And you spoke about at that young age that I was fascinated when I was reading about this youth centre. You had access to a psychologist even at a very young age. What kind of messages were you receiving?

Marcelino [00:11:12] Oh, this was incredible, actually. The community centre, I always spoke very fondly about them because they got me out of trouble. You know, being in a poor suburb, you know, you have a lot of options, bad and good options. And the community centre kept me on the right track. You know, they kept a close eye on me because they knew that I you know, I wanted to do something on myself. And they were a huge support. And they really made sure that I was going to be able to complete what I wanted to do but...

Damian [00:11:45] I was interested in what kind of messages were you receiving off the psychologist?

Marcelino [00:11:52] So we did. We were so lucky as well that the community centre knew that obviously people with broken families, or families that were struggling, need a bit of support and this lady. She was like our friend in a community centre. So I never looked at her as a doctor like someone that it was - 'I'm going to the office and talk to her.' She was just around us. She was helping us. She would help us with homework and talk to us whilst doing the homework. And so I never noticed she was a psychologist until I actually was much older. And then I re-encounter her in Lisbon and I was like, wow. So you do this work of, like,incredible... like almost like a disguised work of like dealing with these kids and giving them because you don't want to be a kid thinking 'oh I have my psychologist's appointment now.' No, it's all about like blending it in and making it all happen in a very positive and supportive way. And the fact that she saw something in me, I could become a dancer, that's huge. She's incredible.

Damian [00:12:45] Yeah, and was that -

[00:12:46] because one of the themes that Jake and I have explored in this series has been this idea of the golden seed that somebody sees something in you before you recognise it yourself.

[00:12:56] So would you attribute the person that sewed that seed was this psychologist in the community centre?

[00:13:02] Absolutely. The thing that, I mean, I was - I was a wild child as well at that time. You know, I wasn't sure if I would have put my head in that or if I would like would have thought that I would be here today. You know, I used to leave home very early in the morning and not come back until late. You know, I had that kind of freedom and, like, lose my shoes and walk around barefoot and like, how wild. And the fact that she looked at me and focussed me and said like, you know, we're going to Lisbon. You're going to be a - you, you can be a professional dancer. That's huge. Like, I would have never seen that, especially because you know, that, you know, a lot of support to be able to have a career like this. And she saw that.

Jake [00:13:39] Oh, I'm interested in how important for your journey. The death of your father was, because we've also spoken with numerous people, you know, Tom, Tom Daley is one of them and - we'll hear from Billy Monger in this series as well who is the young racing driver who crashed and lost both of his legs. And there is this. If you research high achieving people, there is this belief that tragedy leads to triumph. Damian has spoken about it a lot. And I wonder whether the energy that's in you now, perhaps comes from somewhere. And maybe it is the loss of your father that is providing part of the energy for you.

Marcelino [00:14:12] Life is so fleeting. And for me to witness that at such a young age, made me think that I have to grab an opportunity when I see it, I have to really work hard and really make the most of it, because it goes it goes so fast so that that's the legacy that the death of my dad really gave me. I feel like it's that I have to really make sure that I make my mark and I do everything that I can to really live fully and be myself, be very honest with myself. Even when I was thinking about my sexuality and everything, I was thinking 'No. I know I have to be me, otherwise I'll never be able to achieve what I want because I'll be disguised. I'll be - I, I won't fulfil' and that, I think that's the legacy of my the death of my dad left me, that this incredible thirst to - to fulfil to fulfil my potential, you know.

Jake [00:14:59] I think we live in a world, you know, now where people are more nervous than ever to really be themselves. I often say that criticism is the enemy of creativity. So I will sometimes even a little thing like a social media post. I think 'oh yeah, I'm going to post that because I love it! And a part of my brain goes 'oh, I think people might criticise you for that or people won't like that.' And so I don't do it. And actually, that moment of creativity has been ruined by the potential criticism. I, I am so in awe of you because you are - you seem - and you're young yet you seem so solid about who you are and what you stand for. Like, let's talk about your sexuality. You're openly gay. Do you think that you could be a dancer, as good as you are, if you hadn't. If you were hiding anything, could you be. Could you not be out and be as good a dancer as you are?

Marcelino [00:15:47] I'm telling you that right now. Absolutely not. First of all because I'm a terrible liar. Which is a good quality and a bad quality as well. And I would have probably like just feel very stiff and very afraid to express like. That obviously as well. There's this discussion about masculinity in ballet. You know, that's another subject that for me, like - I knew that becoming a dancer, I would have to be on stage pouring my love to these beautiful girl. And think they're all beautiful. They are nice to look at. And I can appreciate that. You know, I get I sometimes leave the stage and I look at them and my friends in a company are mostly girls, I must say, like, I have an incredible group of girlfriends and I am in love with them, not obviously in a sexual way, but like like I'm in awe of their beauty, awe of their work ethic. Their talent is huge. So I'm - I can fall in love with them when I'm doing a role. But I knew that I would never probably go on stage and tell a story of me falling in love with another man. And I was aware of that. And I knew in the beginning I was thinking, have a filter be masculine, be strong and - don't make that your legacy. Like, just be a dancer, you know, just be a straight dance and everything's going to be fine. And the more I tried to do that, the least I felt like I was moving forward. I kept I was - I just felt like I was still that that same boy that was still in the closet trying to understand who he is and stuff. And I was like, no, actually if I'm gonna do this for real and if I'm going to really fulfil it, I'm going to be that, that that person and a lot of so many different shape and ways - an appreciation. I appreciate woman, the woman shape and the way that they are and their strength so much that I can portray that in a role. And that's not going to hold me back. And that was one of the questions that I had in the beginning. And me, is me being gay, going to maybe make the choreographers think, oh, I'm not going to make him play the big hero, the big hero - like soldier - because, you know, he is a bit feminine or he is gay and stuff? But we are actors and that's what actors do. We are not only incredible athletes, but we are actors as well, you know. That's that's part of it.

Damian [00:17:50] But did you experience any prejudice or any of that kind of misunderstanding?

Marcelino [00:17:55] You know, it's quite funny because I've been talking with my friends so much about this. Like, I've had an incredible conversations with them and we've shared this idea. So, since you are born as a gay person, as a homosexual, you understand it as something different. And that's something that you have to have like almost a filter about. And it's not something that you come to your parents at four. 'Oh, I like a boy.' You know, like you really try to find your way in this very complex world that doesn't really accept you fully because you don't see two men in the screen often, especially when it was young. Why you don't see a story the that the Sleeping Beauty's woken up by another Sleeping Beauty and they you know, and they are two women, you don't see these things. So I knew that for a straight man being a ballet dancer, they will come to the company and they'll be very sure that they'll play the the famous Romeo and they'll play these great romantics, because that's their legacy. That's what they know. And they feel very confident. But for a gay person in the ballet world, you know, that there's always that little doubt, although we've had these incredible examples like Nureyev, Rudolf Nureyev this gay icon that broke boundaries and stuff, but it was very different times and he was almost like a unique, rare species and someone that really talked loudly.

[00:19:14] But that, this is a very complex discussion because we do go through this journey that other people don't.

Jake [00:19:23] So when was the moment when, because I think being 100 percent honest with yourself and with other people is almost like a secret superpower. If you can get to that point in life. You have achieved something because not many people are there. When was the moment when you decided that you, whether it's your sexuality or anything else, you are going to be one hundred percent honest and open because you can dance better that way. Do you remember the moment you decided to do that? Because it's brave.

Marcelino [00:19:51] I don't know. You know what, even when I came to England at age 16, that was when I came from Portugal. I never really announced it. I never really announced that I'm this or that. I just I experimented all sorts of way, I had a lot of fun. And I just kind of like made sure that I was fulfilling any need that I need and to really understand why I am to grow - so it was a very, like, moulding process. And even today, I'm still finding out things about myself that I know will unlock things that I don't know. Even during this quarantine, I've had like an incredible wakeup call of how I want to really, like, you know, be perceived in the future and - what am I going to give to the career that I'm doing. And, you know, so it's a complete - slow burner, almost. But, you know, but it has been part of me since I was 16. I think that's where the maturity really kicks in, I guess.

Jake [00:20:40] I'm really interested to talk to you about self-belief because as a parent of two young children,and Damien has got children as well. The one thing I really want my kids to have is that belief that they can go and achieve anything. And you seem to have an awful lot of self-belief. Tell me what your emotion is like before you walk out on stage.

Marcelino [00:20:59] No, I love this. I love. It's the best moment for me - those moments before the curtain are the most exciting ones, because it's a gamble. It's a gamble, you don't know what's going to happen. You don't know how you are going to feel and I'm not someone - a talent - or someone that because there's a lot of deaths that know exactly the plan. The curtain will come up and they'll smile this way and they'll walk this way. And and I don't ever have a plan which is quite stressful for some of my coaches and colleagues. And the danceres that dance with me. But I - before the curtain rises, is this excitement of how am I going to feel. And you know, sometimes you don't feel as spectacular, as excited as you do. But - it, for me in those minutes before coming on stage it's the possibility that for me is so exciting, you know.

Jake [00:21:43] And you have a mind set to make sure that you perform, because exactly like being a sportsperson, you have to perform over the given period of that performance. You got to give your best.

Marcelino [00:21:52] Yeah. So but this comes, this comes from all that incredible work that I do backstage. So I don't go onstage being afraid that I'm gonna fail on something because I've put my all in those rehearsals and, you know, I rehearse from 10:00 in the morning until 6:30 night, like I'm exhausted. My toes hurt, my hip hurts everything. At the end of the day. But when I get home, I'm like - completely relaxed in a sofa at peace with the work I put on. The moment that you start of holding back and you don't do your gym or you don't do your pilates class or you are not eating well or sleeping well, not stretching after rehearsals. You know that you go on stage and you might be, Oh I'm not prepared, but I, I don't let myself be that person that goes on stage feeling like that otherwise it would be terrible.

Damian [00:22:35] So do you. I've heard Yo-Yo Ma speak about this in terms of performance, that the perception is the work is done in the shadows. The play is the bit when you are on the stage where - rather than view it the other way round.

Marcelino [00:22:50] Yes.

Damian [00:22:50] Is that your perception?

Marcelino [00:22:52] Yeah, I don't think I could ever be a ballet dancer or successful or happy having to deal with these, these insecurities on stage. Because I do that all - I do that a lot in my process in the studio. So before there's a pas de bourree which is a duet, which is very complex lifts and then after you do a complex lift in a classical shape, you do a solo, which is tahmima so you do the lift - heavy lifting - and then after the heavy lifting you do the stamina work, which you have to do like a two minutes complete constant jumping solo. So it's very hard. And then after that, the girl does a little solo, which is usually a minute, and then you do your solo, another coda. So it's a period of like usually this in the ballet would take 15 minutes with like a 15 minute, which is called the pas de bourree, the classical pas de bourree. So when I'm in a studio, the pas de bourree, usually with the girl, is hard work because you want, the girl wants these and the girl wants that. And don't touch here and do this shape and make sure you look tall. So it's like a whole, like, huge complex thing. But then it gets to my solo which is just me alone on stage and my coaches will tell you I'm very picky. Very, my process is slow. I don't get into a studio because there are some dancers that get into a studio and they want to do it the first day to impress the coaches, the dancer they are dancing with and they want to be the star from day one. I've always thought that I'm going to use the time in a studio for myself. No one is here. I have no audience. I going to do the first bit of the solo - not happy. Let's repeat again. What about this shape? So I work meticulously what I want to do and how I want to feel, you know, and understand what the character is. So all of that work is - it's building that confidence and then confidence. So in the moment, the day that we come into the studio and I tell my coach yes, today I feel like I can run the whole thing. I - the process has been so strengthening. The foundation is so concrete that that it's play that it's fun.

Damian [00:24:45] So for people listening to this, then, how would you describe watching you? So what - so if you were to describe the experience of seeing you perform when you're at your very best when all that work's been done. How would you describe it for our listeners?

Marcelino [00:25:00] You know, my partner tells, says that he senses freedom. He says that I go on - I jump and I'm not thinking of what's coming next in the way of, like, either I'm not thinking technically which for me is so important because I - they are incredible dancers in a company, obviously. I mean, the Royal Ballet is incredible. Male and female dancers. And each one has their quality. And we have dancers that are technically sound. So I know exactly that they're going to do that and that. But. Emotionally, they don't reach me in the point that I' m looking at - will they - what they must be feeling and their emotion I'm thinking of. How they are lending their first fifth position. And are they squeezing the glutes before they jump to do the double bourree all these technical bits and the dancers that I love watching are the dancers that have complete freedom in their eyes and you see a dancer has complete freedom and that almost feels like he's just chatting with you.

Damian [00:25:54] Sure. Which sounds very much like the young boy doing your audition in that community centre. I'm going to do my African dance regardless of what you might expect.

Marcelino [00:26:02] Yeah.

Damian [00:26:03] So how do you protect that young boy who's now on the big stages of the world to make sure that freedom is still - is still the essence?

[00:26:13] I love, I love that question because these things that I think a lot about, actually. I've - that's me being in the Royal Ballet. That's why I wanted to be here, for people to understand that that's my special something that I can never let go. And my coaches know that I will never be - I'll never be someone else. I'll never try to be someone else. I'll never try to be this shapely prince or like the idea that the prince is that way and the old acted way. I'll do how I feel. I'll do justice to my talent and what my legacy is and to have a company that allows me to do that. And my coaches. That's why I'm here. And that's why I'm here.

Jake [00:26:52] You know what I really like, is when you're talking about the fact that you are gonna be completely yourself publicly and on stage and privately, you're gonna be just you and put it all out there. You are taking complete responsibility for yourself. And it's exactly the same experience when you go into the rehearsal room, you are taking 100 percent responsibility. And I think that is a really healthy mindset to get into where you - if you could say to yourself 'I -Marcelino Sambe - I'm 100 percent responsible for my career, my life, my legacy, my performance, nobody else. That is a really good place to be, isn't it? And too often people hide behind excuses.

Marcelino [00:27:33] No, not just excuses. I hide behind this insecurity I don't tap into the insecurity, because when you are feeling insecure, you got to talk it out. You gotta have someone that as a support system that you can pour those things out and process it. The moment that you start locking it and like trying to give that - the cold shoulder or try to make the coach responsible for you not performing your best or, you know, other elements, you are not really working through the emotional state that an artist needs to have

Jake [00:28:02] Because we talk a lot on this podcast, actually, fault versus responsibility. And you are the perfect exponent of this because it wasn't your fault that you were born in a poor suburb where there's probably never been a ballet dancer in the Royal Ballet from where you come from. It wasn't your fault that your dad passed away when you were young. It wasn't your fault your mum couldn't look after you and so you were put into foster care. But despite all of those things, you still made it your responsibility to go and achieve the dream you always wanted rather than blame those outside forces.

Marcelino [00:28:33] But I felt those outside forces is what makes me want to complete the circle, you know, complete my legacy. So all those elements, everything that has happened to me has allowed me to look back and say, like, you know, 'I gotta do this for these people that done this for me.' Like my mum, just even my mum being able to, like, say, you know, 'Go. You need to go. There's this family here. They can really take care of you and they are going to give you the best.'

[00:29:00] The fact that she passed it on, it's almost like we are playing tag for me too, you know, maybe pass it on in the future for someone else, you know.

Damian [00:29:08] Which does lead us to the question of so who are you passing on this batton too?

Marcelino [00:29:14] So interesting. So I was teaching Kenyan dancers the other day. Which Kenya doesn't have a big history of ballet, you know, and the fact that I was invited to start coaching them through Zoom. So I'm teaching the class through Zoom. And I looked in and then and in one of the classes, because there's many different groups, there's quite a few dance troops in Africa, in Kenya especially, and great talents. And I looked and I saw these incredible, incredible girl, incredible girls. She the perfect physique. No one. I don't know if we can say God, but when the spirits give you, drop a gift to people, they give so much to this young girl. And I said, you know what, I want to know more about who this girl is. So my legacy is to find start finding this, spotting these talents and make them believe that where I am, it's a possibility for them. And the moment that they recognise that and the moment I can help them make that jump into a place where they can actually fulfil their talent. That gift that for me is my legacy.

Damian [00:30:14] So if you could pass on just born golden nugget of advice to that young girl in Kenya, and she was open to listen to it, about how she could find herself on the stage of the Royal Ballet, what would you one bit of learning, be then?

Marcelino [00:30:28] I've I've learnt that. Sometimes when you hold your past against you, when you look back and you don't want to acknowledge that, yeah, you come from a place that is not successful or your family didn't give you this and that, and you hold that is like a negative connotation that stops you from developing. You have to use that as fuel. It's like that's fuel for you to do better. And I want to say anyone that comes from a place of with a dark, dark past, with a family that couldn't stick together, you have to use that to push you forward, you know, to give you more. To fulfil what your family couldn't do or your your past couldn't do, you know, and that's that's a very important thing to unlock that drive.

Jake [00:31:13] It reminds me timing of the conversation we had with Steven Bartlett when he said he always believed he could. And that was his kind of superpower for achieving anything he wanted. You just believed it would happen. If you can get to that point often, it will happen.

Marcelino [00:31:26] And you can like yourself, I often kind of played with my mind, kind of likes being very, like, overly humble, saying, like, 'Oh I may and I am I going to do this and I'm going to do..' Although  inside I know it's going to happen, you know.

Damian [00:31:39] Can you expand on that? That's interesting.

Marcelino [00:31:41] It's a hard thing. So it's I have to believe that I'm going to achieve things. But it's not because I believe that I'm going to be able to do this role and I'm going to be able to do a role that might not be me or something. I believe that all those things are going to come. But I don't think it's up to me alone. It's up to, and what I don't trust on is other people. They're that element that I have to maybe change their mind for them to be able to see me maybe as a prince, you know, because I haven't had many prince roles.

Jake [00:32:09] But you still give absolute dedication to it. Because I think there's always a danger you can go when it's going to happen. So I'll just have a cheeseburger. I'll just lay in bed today. I just wont stretch after the rehearsal because you still believe it's gonna happen now. You seem to have the belief it's going to happen, but you're also absolutely making sure it's going to happen with the hard work and the dedication. One without the other won't work.

Marcelino [00:32:33] It's in my eyes. It's my eyes. I look at the director and the director has to trust me because I do put to work. They just have to give me that role because I've done everything that I could to, not just prove because not so much about poving at this level, but like at that I do everything that I have to do to be to open the curtains open. And you're going to have a good show. So I want that repertoire. I want to be able to, like, do things that maybe a dancer of my shape and my look haven't done it. I want to break those barriers because I'm ready, you know.

Jake [00:33:01] Is it not exhausting?

Marcelino [00:33:03] Well..

Jake [00:33:03] Or does it give you energy.

Marcelino [00:33:05] Well, you should see me when I get home, though. My partner often looks at me like, 'Why are you so dead?' I'm like, 'I just need a break right now. I just need to sit here and watch a bunch of series and relax.'

Jake [00:33:16] Yes. Schitt's Creek. We might as well promote our favourite TV show.

Marcelino [00:33:20] Yeah. And like, you know, and just look at Moira Rose and get inspired by that.

Damian [00:33:25] So can I ask you a question that we've asked, again a number of guests, about an elite level like yourself. How much of your success would you attribute to your physical gifts and how much of it would you attribute to the mental side of performance?

Marcelino [00:33:42] I feel like I've been gifted in both ways. So it's like I'm not 100 percent gifted body wise and with the work ethic as well.

[00:33:50] I was very talented in the way that I've always wanted to do it, but I have to always constantly remind that that talent will, the perception will start dissipating if I don't put in the work. So it's I don't feel like talents stays with you forever, you know, physical as well. Talent. So it is such a balancing act because you have to trust that you have this natural ability that is going to like unlock the next level. But then as well, you got to put you have to be constantly aware if you're not doing it like, right. Because that's when injuries and, you know, that's when things can go wrong.

Jake [00:34:26] And you had a big injury. You were out for months. Yes. I'm interested to know how you dealt with that setback.

Marcelino [00:34:33] So, you know, it's almost like getting injured is terrible because, you know, they're going to have so much work to come back. That's the problem, because once you get on the swing of it, like, I know that I feel the confidence, you know, in jumping. It's always been my favourite thing to do. I've always done jumping it's something that really naturally came to me. And I see other colleagues that have to work really hard at it. So the moment that I couldn't jump because obviously had a stress fracture on my shin, which is so bad for a ballet dancer because it's the springs. So imagine a spring that is broken.

Damian [00:35:03] And how did that happen?

Marcelino [00:35:06] So a stress fracture happens through, in my case, through being overly ambitious.

Damian [00:35:11] Right.

Marcelino [00:35:11] So a season of the Royal Opera House commences in August 16th. Imagine then finishes in June, early June. So it's...

Jake [00:35:21] Eleven months.

Marcelino [00:35:21] Eleven months almost of non-stop, non-stop performances. And at that time I was a soloist on the cusp of being promoted to first solo which is the next level and then. So obviously, being very eager and ambitious, I was doing all sorts of role, having a little niggle and not even acknowledging it, because I knew that if I say something, I might not be able to do the next role. And the roles kept coming. And the director was very excited and impressed. And, oh, my God, this is all great. And then in the end of the season, I get brought to first soloist. And then after that, Dancer's usually have like five weeks lay-off. Which some dancers rest. But obviously, me being the young, overly ambitious person, I spend the whole summer dancing in Japan, America, Berlin, France. I had all scheduled private performances with another colleague of mine. So we kind of went and made money. And I got back. But I mean, during the summer, I was already, I already knew that something was really wrong because I wasn't jumping as well as I could. My whole leg was numb at night, so I didn't feel my whole leg as well like. Because I had problems with my nerves. And my left lower back had a huge, like contracted muscle because I was all I was using my back right in my glutes. So the whole chain was BEEP. So then when I got back to the work, I tried, I remember that I had maybe like a few days off before I started the eleven months season again without having a full break. And I tried to jump in class and I was like, something is really wrong. And this is my first season as the first soloist. I went to the physio department and there I had a scan and it was broken. And then, well, the nine month recovery started. So two months off completely. And then slowly building from age 11 technique, learning all those terrible like footworks. Staying on a floor. Then the glutes. And then let's get the bar. And then do the bar for three months and then maybe get centered. But like, very slow recovery. And that gave me such a huge, huge power-  now never go back there.

Jake [00:37:31] Oh, really? You're not going to take the risk again.

Marcelino [00:37:33] No. Now I understand the gift of rest because I didn't think that rest was necessary because I never had any injuries. And I really felt like I was invincible. And that's part of being naive and young and overly energetic. Now I, resting is like almost a gift. You know, it's very precious for a dancer.

Damian [00:37:53] How did you keep yourself sustained during that long nine month period of rehab?

Marcelino [00:37:59] I did a lot of like reading, studying. Like a lot of exciting things that could further me as a person as well as well as a dancer. Because when you are when you start like as such a young age at 11, you are, you are brought in into this world of like complete immersion in bubble of dancing, dancing, dance. And the moment that I didn't have that, nine months 'you're a normal person go off, you have a few months to just be.' I was like, 'What do I like? What do I want? Okay, let's look at art.' All the museums. Hanged out with lots of drag queen, superexciting people around London. And a normal life. And that really fed my excitement to come back with a new perspective of things.

Jake [00:38:41] And what did you learn about yourself as a person during that period?

Marcelino [00:38:46] What did I learn? I learnt that I can inspire others, which I. Because it had been all about me, I never really had a moment to think like, actually, I can guide other people and I can, like, talk about all sorts of issues, open up myself.

Jake [00:38:59] Isn't it important that you can be happy also when you're not dancing, because, with the best will in the world, you will not dance forever because your body simply won't allow it. You have to make sure we see this so often, particularly with people, elite sports people like you. It's after the retirement that the demons come out and the issues come out. You need to be happy not doing what makes you happy.

Marcelino [00:39:21] I agree completely. And you know that that's why I said that those nine months were pivotal for my career and pivotal for me to then do that step to principle. I feel like if I haven't gone through that nine months of really understanding who I am and 'What do I want? What do I really want? What do you like? What do you believe in?' I would have not looked at the director with those eyes of fire and he goes like 'He's ready.' You know, I feel like you have to go through that process, you know.

Jake [00:39:45] One thing I'm interested in in your world is you're a free spirit, right? And you really on stage, you are there for yourself - right. But so is this dancer and this dancer and this... How how do you all operate together? Because it's about individual brilliance. Working as a team.

Marcelino [00:40:01] I mean. But you know what? You are a successful dancer when you can recognise others talents. I always thought that. So I know that, my friend, has something that I don't have and I appreciate that. And I aspire to be like that. So I always look at my friends and see something that I can take from them that applies to me that I need to work on or something. So that is the environment we have now at the Royal Ballet. Even that documentary you saw the other day kind of showed like all these incredible different dancers, although it didn't dive deep really into everyone. You could see that there's like, you know, a dancer that is incredibly classical and it just looks like the epitome of a prince and is blonde and he looks gorgeous. And everybody is like, 'Oh, he's great!' And then you have the other dancer that is so versatile that in one day he's winning an incredible contemporary piece and then the other... So everyone has their place. And the moment that you can really understand your niche and understand what your strengths are going to be, that's when you you get success, I feel.

Jake [00:40:58] I love that because I think that applies to anyone listening to this. No matter what the walk of life, what the business, what they do, it's so important to know that the people around you are your strength as well.

Damian [00:41:10] Well, I was just reminded of, as you were telling me, the image that was coming to mind is of the documentary that everybody's talking about, the Michael Jordan Last Dance one.

Marcelino [00:41:19] I haven't seen it.

Damian [00:41:20] But  his transition of being a great player was only complete when he realised that he had to make other players great to win something. And that was a real echo.

Jake [00:41:31] Lifting of this up is is an underrated skill, but also makes you feel great, doesn't it?

Marcelino [00:41:37] Oh, my God. And that comes as well with my photography, like we're talking before, like me being able to abstract myself, take myself off me and look. I do a lot of looking in the Opera House when I'm walking around because I'm telling you. I'm genuinely. There's so much talent, anyone in that company can be a principal in any other company around the world. Obviously not everyone gets there and that's a choice to make because that building is inspiring in the way that there's so many beautiful people, not just beautifully physically, but like really intelligent brains. It's really exciting. And as well, they are like people, they have devoted their lives. They've been there for 50 years. These ballet coaches, old ballet coaches, they're like have knowledge beyond that, you can... And all of that is inspiring. And you have to when you get to when you're in a big corporation, not a of corporation it's a company. But it's a corporation, you know, it's huge, huge theatre. You have to you have to abstract yourself from yourself a little bit and look and see what you can gain from looking at.

Jake [00:42:35] So if an amazing talent walks through the door and some dancer that they've discovered in another country. And he comes over and he walks in and he has presence and he's bold and you... Are you excited and inspired by the presence of that person or are you threatened?

Marcelino [00:42:51] So I can give you a concrete example with names and all.

Jake [00:42:53] Yeah. Go on.

Marcelino [00:42:54] So when I was injured nine months, obviously, I'd just been chosen for the first soloist. But like me, the other dancers were injured at that time and incredible people were recruited from other companies, principals coming in as first soloists. So...

Jake [00:43:08]  Take, doing your job.

Marcelino [00:43:10] Basically replacing me.

Jake [00:43:11] Ohhh.

Marcelino [00:43:12] But like incredible dancers.

[00:43:14] When I say, like, incredible. You look at them and they are just, they are just, they have everything that you think that it's right. And the fact that they as well, good people and all just makes you think like, well. And I could have chosen to be, like, freaking out. 'Oh, my God. Director, please. What's happening? Oh, is my place being replaced.' But no, I looked at him and I was like, wow, this is just lighting my fire. When I come back, I want to be even like, I want to be even better than him, if that's even possible. And these people that then join, like these dancers actually have lit fire on me while I was injured that actually made me believe, you know, I'm going to come back stronger. And I want that. I want to have that respect because sometimes in part of a corporation, for so long, you become part of the furniture you know, you're just the table. And people are used to see that beautiful table but it's a table. And then when you buy a new chair, everybody's like, 'Wow.'

[00:44:09] And you start thinking, OK, what do I need to bring when I come back that is going to be the new painting on a wall. That's going to be exciting. So it was like that.

Jake [00:44:18] What's interesting there is that you can have young children who are brilliant at ballet. But you have no idea whether they have got the ability to operate in an elite environment.

Damian [00:44:26]  Yeah.

Jake [00:44:26] Marcelino talks about the ability to operate in that elite world.

Damian [00:44:32] And that's really fascinating in terms of when did you learn that? So your transition from being a great individual dancer to being a great dancer, as part of the organisation required you to recognise strengths. When did the realisation dawn?

Marcelino [00:44:48] My journey in the Royal Ballet hasn't been smooth, guys.

[00:44:50] So when I joined the company when I was 18, I came in guns blazing out, joined the company. I wanted to be in front of the room in the ballet classes. And I thought, like, I thought that I want it all right now. I was basically that kind of guy and that ambition, that confident. And quickly ballet masters and teachers start like, you know, putting me in my place. And that's when I understood that, 'Oh, God, I'm part of this huge, incredible theatre.' And this is such a lucky position to be. And that was such a process of humbleness.

Damian [00:45:23] Right.

Marcelino [00:45:24] And through that process, like a bit of actually sometimes a bit scary and in pain, like think ballet masters are really putting you down. In, like, you know, telling you things that you don't agree with. But you have to swallow your pride and like, you know, be part of the group. It was a process. And the moment that I understood my position and what I represented in that company as well, that for me was an incredible moment. That's when I realised that actually I have a place here.

Jake [00:45:50] I'm loving this conversation. I could talk for an awful long time.

Marcelino [00:45:52] Forever.

Jake [00:45:53] Look, the way we often wrap up these podcasts is with quickfire questions.

Marcelino [00:45:58] Oow, I'm terrible.

Jake [00:45:58] So here we go. Do your best. Do your best. Don't worry. We're going to start with three non-negotiable behaviours that the people around you have to buy into. So what are the things that have to bring to the table, otherwise you're not happy?

Marcelino [00:46:13] Honesty, respect, creativity.

Damian [00:46:17] Brilliant.

Jake [00:46:17] You are good at these. What were you worried about?

Damian [00:46:21] So what advice would you give a teenage you, just starting out?

Marcelino [00:46:25] Teenage you. Look after yourself. I know it sounds green but it's true. Because, you know, you can go a bit crazy when you're a teenager and you try to do it all and then you get injured. So just look after yourself.

Jake [00:46:38] We've talked a lot about success. How do you react to failure?

Marcelino [00:46:44] Um, that's when I have to think a lot, because I have to actually really...

Jake [00:46:50] Are you comfortable with failure? Do you operate in that space where you know you're going to fail because that's how you find your limit.

Marcelino [00:46:57] I would say so. Would say so I feel like I'm a good person to go through failure because I accept it. And I think of the next the next move. I don't dwell on it. Sometimes my father says that I should even when he's sick I tell him 'Come on. Get up. You can do this. Come on. Keep going.' So that's my attitude, I guess. Picking up, picking myself up and keep moving.

Damian [00:47:17] Right now, we touched on this a little bit when we talk about your childhood. But how important is legacy to you?

Marcelino [00:47:23] Oh, legacy is so important to me. That's that's something that drives me every day. Every action that I take I know it's going to have a repercussion and will inspire or not the next generation or someone like me. So legacy is a huge part of how I conduct myself in the day and what I what comes out of my mouth.

Jake [00:47:42] And finally, your one golden rule to living a High Performance life?

[00:47:54] You can have as much time as you like because we can just edit out.

Marcelino [00:47:56] Perfect, perfect say it again. Ask me again.

Jake [00:48:00] Your one golden rule. The one thing you would like, I suppose, really. Your final message to the people listening to this podcast for living a High Performance life. What would you like to be your parting message to them?

Marcelino [00:48:11] Tap into your tap into that young person that you were when you first started doing what you're doing. The hopes and the excitement you had and always keep it with you, always keep it with you, as always, have a place with you, because that really overthrows all the other negative things that might come. Because you know that there's always something there for you to remind you to, you know you wanted to do this and there was something so special and excitement.

Jake [00:48:38] You know what, Marcy, I can't thank you enough for doing this podcast with us. The phrase that keeps on coming back to me during this conversation is impose your will. I think imposing your will on things in life is so important because that's how you get stuff done. As we talk, I get the impression that you are someone that has imposed your will time and time again. Achieved your dreams. You'll continue to do that. And I think for anyone listening to this, whether they've personally gone off track a bit or maybe they've got young children and they want their children to live a great life. I think imposing your will on your world is a great message. And that's what I feel you've done.

Marcelino [00:49:13] Thank you so much. It has been very fun talking with you guys.

Damian [00:49:16] Thank you.