Dina Asher-Smith
Jonny Wilkinson is one of the most decorated and recognisable faces in rugby history. Jonny scored 1,246 points from 97 Test appearances, the most famous being his drop goal that won the World Cup for England in 2003.
In a stellar career Jonny would accumulate four Six Nations titles with England and at club level he left Newcastle after helping them to Premiership and Powergen Cup titles and joined RC Toulon winning the Top 14 and European Cup.
But Jonny’s public success is only part of his story. He speaks frankly and inspiringly about the pressure of expectation and the mental health implications of leading a life defined by others.
TRANSCRIPT
JAKE: What is your definition of high performance?
DINA: Ooh, good question. Um, my definition of high performance. That's a very good question, I guess is, um, thinking from a sporting, sporting world, sporting context is just operating at the highest possible level and making sure that everything that you do is engineered and geared to make you or whatever the team is, whatever the environment is, the most successful vehicle possible, and, um, it's just when everything works in sync. It's more like a machine than like a group of people. And to me, that's probably a high performance and everything's just efficient and everything's there for a reason and it works well and you're successful. So yeah.
JAKE: There you go. Look, Dina, I think for people listening to this, they can understand high-performance from a physical perspective. Okay. You are clearly born with incredible natural ability, but then physically you have to hone that ability. You have to work with your coaches. You have to put in the hours in the gym and make sure you stretch. So you’re supple, and your work on your speed, all the things that come from the physical side of being a high performance athlete. What's really fascinating to Damian and myself and the people listening to this podcast is how you go from being a young girl at school who enjoys running to being mentally a high performance performer. Can you remember the day when you went from this being something you enjoyed and a bit of a hobby to thinking, right, I need to make this my life and if I'm going to do that, I need to be 100% dedicated to it?
DINA: I think for me, it was more of a process than a day, but, um, I can definitely remember, I guess, key turning points. But to become, I guess, high-performance and become more of an elite mindset and taking it from, as you said, kind of like a hobby to something that I want to make a career out of and then go in from having a career to make, being, wanting to be the best at what you do. It's definitely a process and something that my coach, John, who's known me since I was eight years old and tiny, um, I think he's definitely had it in his sights since pretty early, probably when I was about 10. But I did not join in the wavelengths till I was about 17. And, um, yeah, I guess the turning point, I guess, that you're probably referring to is, um, after I had become, um, a global bronze medallist at the world championships in Moscow in 2013, I was, um, 17 years old and I had whirlwind season. I'd done really good personal best times across the hundred and the 200 at junior level. And I thought that that was going to be just like the end of my season. Cause I was a GB junior, I was looking forward to going on a holiday, you know, like typical kind of school girl vibes. Like, I was happy, I got what I wanted to, but I just, I knew there was a world championships, but at 17, like you just kind of think, Oh yeah, I'm going to watch that at home. And then I got a call to say, Oh, do you want to come to the world champs? And I was like, well, oh, my God, I don't have any friends, I don't know anybody. Like that was my number one concern, but obviously, yeah, I went and I didn't expect to run because I was part of the relay squad and there's six girls, but I was put on the first leg and I made the strike four and then we came away with a bronze medal from the championships. And after that, the winter after that, I was nominated for BBC’s Young Sport Personality of the Year, and I made the top three. I didn't wear it, but, um, I made the top three and I think that process and particularly being nominated for BBC on Sports Personality that made me sit back and go hang on a second, if the GB senior team think that you're good enough to be selected at such a young age, and because in that process of getting a medal, I think at that point I became like the youngest world medallist ever that the World Championships across the world had ever seen. And if GB believe in you to this point, you've done this, and the IWAF were like, congratulations, and BBC think that you're good enough to be nominated alongside career sports people for BBC’s Young SPoTY, um, maybe you should take it a bit more seriously. So I remembered, I kind of, that day I went and, and um, looked at my UCAS form and I changed my options to stay in London so I would stay with my coach. And I remember being like, Oh, all my uni aspirations where I wanted to go, that's gone straight out the window. And I literally remember the physical, um, changing my UCAS form was like, okay, I better make this career work now because I was working very hard so I'd have the options to go to some of the best unis in the world. And now I'm taking it for this track and field thing, so I’d better made it work. That was basically what I was telling myself as I was typing my UCAS form. But yeah…
JAKE: I love that. And, Damian, we talk about this a lot. You know, quite often people will only understand their high performance journey when they see the evidence of what their hard work gives for them. And it feels like that is exactly what Dina is saying there, is that she was kind of okay - until the day the evidence was in front of her, that she is making a difference.
DAMIAN: Yeah. That's very much been a theme that we've seen, that confidence is often based on evidence that you're capable of doing something. But then that leads us to that interesting question of Dina that when you've been going into territories where you don't have the evidence that you can be number one at that stage, how do you find evidence when isn't necessarily so easy to discover?
DINA: You don’t. Like, that's what I love about kind of what I do in my job. Like you literally don't know. Like, are you going to win the race? Are you going to be successful? Who knows? But as long as you've done the work, you believe in yourself and you've done everything within your power, that when you stand in the line, you can put your best foot forward, you just have to hope that whatever you have inside you is the best and is good enough and you work hard so it is. But ultimately like it's track and field, like there's seven other women, seven other teams on the track at the same time as you, and they're just as hungry, they've worked just as hard. And um, sometimes you don't have the evidence. Like you can have the predictions, you can have the times on paper, indicative things in training, but ultimately, like I always say the Olympics, the World Championships, nothing compares to - I'm incredibly biased but - the moment of a track and field championships and particularly a track and field sprint championships. All bets are off. Like it's literally what happens in that 10 seconds. And it depends on so many things. It depends on how you handle it. It depends on what your prep’s been like, whether you've been completely honest with yourself and whether you have left every stone unturned and worked really hard, because ultimately everybody will see every weakness, whether that's physical or mental when the gun goes and you've got to race. So quite frankly, like sometimes you don't, but you can just, you've just got to work really hard within yourself to that you're in the best position possible. And then you just go and do it, like that's it.
DAMIAN: So can I ask you a question that we asked Dame Kelly Holmes then, Dina? We asked her to determine that when she was on the home straight at the 800 metres final, how much of her gold medal came down to physical ability versus how much then came down to the mental ability of being able to still run as hard and as fast under pressure?
DINA: I think it might be slightly different for sprinters and middle distance, as well, because you have like a different kind of, I guess, a tiredness or whatever. But, um, I love sitting back with my friends and watching track and field, and, or even if I'm at a diamond league, I watch people warm up and they will look fantastic, but I can tell you they're not going to win the race. And they might have it within them, they might be the strongest, the most technically efficient. But if you look at them, you look at their body language, you look at how they're looking at their competitors. And you know that when the gun goes, they're going to get really scared and they're going to tense up and they're not going to run within the best of their ability. So sprinting is very much a mental game. I think it depends on who you are as a person. But I would say with me, it's probably about 40% mental, 60% physical with me, but that's because I'm quite fortunate that I've, I'm quite confident within myself. But I know that, but that's just me like as a person in life anyway. Uh, if say I wasn't like that, it could go up to 60%, mental, 40% physical, cause at the end of the day with sprinting you've got to stand in the line and you've got to believe that you have what it takes to win. If I do everything within myself, I can win. Like, you've just got to have that absolute belief. Whether it happens or not, that's out the question. And then that comes to the physical - how you handle yourself, how you go through the motions, whether you hit the distinct points in your race, but, but it is definitely a mental game because you have to also have the ability in sprinting. But, um, when the pressure's on within the race that you might have not done all the phases correctly or your competitors might be right next to you when you're expecting them to be 10 metres behind you at some point in the race, you've got to have the self confidence to not panic. Cause as soon as you panic in a race that is done. It's a beautiful oxymoron in a really weird way because in sprinting you have to be as relaxed as possible to win, but obviously in a stadium full of 8,000 people, like, it's pretty hard.
DAMIAN: So Dame Kelly told us that she felt that it was, it was 20/80, so 20% of it was down to the physical attributes.
DINA: Really?
DAMIAN: Yeah, well she argued that in that final of the 800 metres she said there was .4 seconds that separated the top four finishers.
DINA: That’s a good point.
DAMIAN: So her point was that everybody was as fast and as strong, approximately, as each other. So it was 80% of it came down to the mentality of being able to hold your nerve.
DINA: That’s a good point. No, but it is, it is a lot of holding your nerve, I have to say. It is a lot.
DAMIAN: Some of your rivals are quite elaborate and very overtly confident in the way that they strut around before the races.
DINA: We’re all different.
DAMIAN: Have you ever found yourself being intimidated, or has it ever sown seeds of doubt in you?
DINA: Not particularly, no, because I think it's just, I'm going to use a phrase, but it's just believing in your own source, basically. Cause like, you can do all the bravado, you can kind of walk around, you can, people sometimes play mind xxx, try and play mind games with you, like, they used to try it when I was a bit younger. But I think like, I don’t mind, like, I’m on my own little wavelength. I’m on my own little xxx, like, that’s it really, like…
DAMIAN: But what mind games would they play with you? What kind of things would they try to do?
DINA: I don’t know. Some people like we all warm up in lanes, in a warmup track, and some people will warm up like in your lane, like, come running at you. But …
JAKE: Don't come in my lane!
DINA: Yeah. I one of those people that I kind of hold my lane, hold my space. If you want to run in my lane it's fine, but I'll run straight through you. But that’s what I mean. I don't mind. If you're going to come into my space, then I'm not going to give it up. But it's just about believing in yourself and also acknowledging that they're wasting energy if they're actively going out of their way to be something that they're not. If naturally bravado is how they run well, then whatever. Like that's their business, and you do you. But at times when people are actively trying to distract you, it actually gives me a bit more confidence. I should, probably shouldn't be saying this. Please hopefully none of my rivals listen to this podcast. But no, it gives me more confidence because if you think about it, so you've got, you’ve been working for four years for the Olympic Games, you've got 10 seconds or 11 seconds for an Olympic final. You've got your last moments to prepare with your coach and your team around you before you get separated. And in those last moments, you need to be doing everything you need to win, right? And if your rivals choose to try and distract you in that moment, that tells you that they see you as the ultimate barrier. If they believe that they could do it with their own ability without affecting other people, they wouldn't even care what you're doing. They literally wouldn’t care. They wouldn’t care how fast you ran. They wouldn't care whether you were looking good or not, like, cause they'd just be like, I need to focus on me, cause as long as I do what I'm going to do, I'm gonna win. But if they think to win, she needs to be off her A game. And I need to affect that, then that's just telling, that’s telling me that I'm in good shape.
DAMIAN: I'm interested in the role of your parents in this. Because what I've seen them being interviewed, then when I've seen them in the spotlight, say at the Sports Personality of the Year, that was the phrase that I would use to describe your parents.
DINA: Ah, thank you.
DAMIAN: They have a quiet dignity about them. And I’m interested in their influence in shaping the person standing on that xxx metre.
DINA: Oh, bless you. Thank you very much for that. I'm going to put that in our little group chat. They will be really happy that you said that. So thank you very much. And yeah, like, well, I mean, my parents obviously, we’re a really, really close tight-knit family and they've kind of been the foundation of everything, alongside my coach John who's known me since I was eight. So outside my parents is then probably John as well. I think I'm very fortunate that I come from a very strong foundation. And I'm not trying to say that's better or whatever than anybody else, but that definitely is an advantage because I know that if it goes well – fantastic. My parents are super proud, my friends are happy. If it doesn’t, then I try again next time. But my parents are still gonna love me the same, I’ve still got the same friends, nothing goes away. I've always got my foundation and I know who I am. And like, I'm happy with who I am. So I don't have to step outside of my character to kind of achieve something because I know that my friends and family are going to be, going to be cool. And ironically, if I step outside of my character my parents will be like, who on earth was that on the track today? We did not bring up a child like this. But erm…
DAMIAN: They just seem incredibly impressive people. And I was interested in the kind of lessons that they passed over to you.
DINA: Yeah, yeah. They've, they've taught me a lot. They taught me the value of hard work - consistently since I was younger and, and just to enjoy every day and take every opportunity that that comes at you and be very grateful for every time I get to step on the track and be very grateful that in the nicest way, the most stressful thing in my life on a day to day basis is getting from A to B very quickly. That's it, like, it's a good life. I can't complain. I’m going to work very hard to be the best at it, but if not, if it's not the end of the world.
JAKE: It's a lovely, it's lovely phrase, actually that, for keeping what you do in perspective. Cause there's one way of looking at it, which is appear on the global stage, running in front of millions of people at home, running in front of tens of thousands of people in the stadium, trying to fulfil the dreams of my teachers and my parents, and my friends.
DINA: And the nation.
JAKE: And the nation, or you can go, “Running from A to B as quick as possible”. It's a great way to describe it, isn’t it?
DINA: Yeah, well it is. I mean, I always try and, I think I've always had the perspective of that, I'm an entertainer, and sport is a special type of entertainment whereas it is our lives and it is really important, and it is something that we work on day in, day out. It's a lifestyle so it is a very intense form of entertainment and we can't lose that. It's just remembering that it's all fun and games, in the nicest way. But obviously I'm very serious about it. But, it’s all fun and games.
JAKE: We have a phrase in our family, Dina, which I am, I'm kind of sensing, maybe without having the same phrase, you have the same feeling from your family. So this was passed on to me by my parents and I've got two little kids and we try and do the same thing with them. And it is: roots and wings. So you're giving your kid the wings to go and fly and do amazing stuff and conquer the world and have no barriers. At the same time you've given them roots to know that as you go on that journey, you've always got the roots back here. And if you need to come back here at any time, this is your, this is your base.
DINA: Yeah, that's definitely that. My dad, I, I moved out my house like a few years ago now, and every single week my dad still asks me if I want to move back in. (Laughs) So I definitely, I definitely feel that I have very, very strong roots. My dad’s like, are you sure? Are you sure? We do miss you. I’m like, it’s OK dad, I'm still coming round. But um, no, but seriously, yeah, definitely that is something that I identify with. And I think, um, in that I am, I am very fortunate and I think that probably on an, on a psychological base, it does give me quite a competitive advantage in a way, because yes, I'm hungry, yes I want to win. Don't, don't mistake that. But um, at the same time I know that yeah, I have a firm loving foundation. So if I don't, it's not gonna ruin my self-esteem, self-confidence. My world, isn't going to collapse. I'm just gonna try again, and try and get better and make a more successful attempt next time.
DAMIAN: That was really interesting Dina because on our previous series of the podcast, there was a clip that went viral from the footballer Robin Van Persie. And it was some advice that he gave his fourteen year old son. And I think he spoke about he's presented as some of the choice of being a winner or a loser in life. But I think the bit that a lot of people really connected with was the psychological safety that he presented beforehand of saying, “Listen, I’ll love you regardless of whatever route you go down, as a parent. My job is just to love you. But you have to make the choices of which, which pathway you want to pursue in terms of making excuses or being or taking that accountability”.
DINA: Yeah, definitely. I'm a big, I like the idea of accountability and lack of excuses. I'm, that is a huge part of my life. I really try and make sure that, um, I'm completely accountable for whatever happens on track, whether it's good or bad, I take responsibility for it. Cause I think when we are in this position and you have a talent or a gift, and that paired with opportunity, so you are fit and you have the races and you are in the shape to potentially go and do good things, then the easiest, the easy things to control are stuff that you need to hold yourself accountable for. So whether that's working hard, training, eating right, sleeping right, living the right kind of lifestyle. So that means not clubbing, four days a week or whatever. Um, it just means holding yourself to a very high standard. But yeah, accountability is essential because sometimes you'd been given these gifts, you've been given these opportunities that other people would love to have, and you can't do yourself disservice. You can't do all the people that have invested in you a disservice by simply just not holding yourself accountable and not working hard or not being as dedicated as you should be.
JAKE: And where do you stand on the theme of responsibility? Because I am a firm believer in the 100% responsibility mindset. So everything to do with your athletics and your world that you exist in, and this can apply to anyone not in sport or not athletics, just listening to the pod. Is that if you can say right, every little element of my life I am going to take 100% responsibility for, rather than looking at coaches to blame or looking at things that happen on the track or the wind direction, or little injuries I picked up, right? If you can avoid all of those excuses and just take 100% responsibility, it's a really powerful mindset to get into, I think. I wonder what your thoughts are on that.
DINA: Yeah, that is, that is honestly how I, how I conduct my life. And it's a hundred percent responsibility. I understand that sometimes to be able to take a hundred percent responsibility you do have to have the financial freedom, particularly in our sport, to make decisions for yourself. So that means going out and making sure you can eat the best food. You live somewhere where you can have the best lifestyle, that you can afford the best physio treatment and stuff like that. That also comes into it. So I understand that …
JAKE: Do you not think that even without those things, you can still take 100% responsibility for what you have in your world?
DINA: Yeah, definitely. And I think that, um, that I think that ultimately is, is a big deciding factor on whether somebody is successful, particularly in track and field, um, or not. Because at the end of the day, it's about not making excuses. I’d, I'm one of those people that when people go, Oh, it was so windy, I didn't do well. And I'm like, um um. If it was that windy, then you shouldn't have raced. But if it was so windy that you had to like have a problem with it, then you shouldn't have raced if it was that windy. If you decided to race, if you stepped on the track, if you stepped up to the line, then you're telling everybody that I'm ready to go. And yeah, sometimes the time won't be what you wanted to be. And there might be genuine reasons for that, but it doesn't mean you have to make an excuse or blame somebody and yeah, if you're going to make excuses or you want to blame somebody else that you shouldn't have been on the line that day. So - yeah.
DAMIAN: Dina, can we explore the relationship you have with John Blackie, your coach? Because again, these themes that you're talking about, are themes that I imagine John has helped embed within you. Now, I am often intrigued by the fact that John has gone through seeing you at eight years old to now seeing you in these elite finals, and your relationship is obviously had to evolve and develop. Would you just tell us a bit more about it?
DINA: Sure. And I don’t even know where to start with John. He is very much like a second dad to me, a hundred percent. That is how I would describe our relationship overall. But, um, he puts it better than me and he's, he says that we've evolved from like, I guess like, a parent and child relationship when I was younger, where he would literally tell me what to do, and I'd be like, okay, okay, okay. To, um, now I've got a bit older and I understand things, to more of a partnership. So we will have very much respectful, equal conversation as what we want to do, how's best to tackle problems, what goals, what aims do you want to go, or what we think we have to work on, how we improve something, whether something should be brought into the team, taken out of the team and, and what the best method for it is. But yeah, John is… there are not enough positive ways in the world to describe John. I'm incredibly grateful for all the time that he spent with me and the belief that he's had in me since I was so young because, um, yeah, it takes a special kind of person to have seen somebody at eight years old and gone, “Yeah. I see something in that one. Just don’t let her get hurt. And don't let her get bored with the sport”. That's basically what he’s been saying since I was, since I was eight years old. And he's just gradually, um, been really patient with my, both my physical and mental development, adding things in when they needed to be, not pushing me into anything, not kind of pushing me to do stuff that I'm not ready for. And I think the most important thing about my relationship with John is that I hand on heart know that he wouldn't let me do anything or he wouldn't put me in a position that I couldn't handle. That, and I think that's a big confidence boost as well, cause if John says you can do it, that means I can do it. Like, cause he's known me for so long, he knows, even if I'm not in the mood for something, or I might be a bit upset or whatever, he knows how to pick me up, he knows when to push me, when to step back, and yeah, ultimately if John says we're ready, then we're ready to go, yeah.
JAKE: And from a parenting perspective, because parents, as parents we often struggle with things like this, you kind of, you want to push your child as far as you can, down a direction that you know they might love, but at the same time kind of have a realisation that if it’s not for them, you do need to accept that and step back. So from the total reverse really, what has John done from your perspective that we as parents can employ and be like, “Right, that is how you inspire and push up an 8, 9, 10, 11 year old” without making it too much?
DINA: It's a good question. I think the most important thing is having fun, when they're 9, 10, 11. Like, honestly they just need to enjoy it, because there's no point pushing anybody to do anything if they're not enjoying it. Like, they're not going to work hard. They're going to be miserable. They might get results if they're super talented, but they're gonna run away from you and never talk to you again when they're done like. There are far more important things in life than just being successful in getting results. And I know that sounds really weird to say on this podcast, but it's true. Like even looking at the times that we're in, we can see there are far more important things than just being the best at something.
JAKE: So when did he then turn the conversation from, “Hey Dina, enjoy the race” to, “Right, Dina, we need to win this race”? When did that…
DINA: So he says that now and again. He still does that to me now. I think it's because John is so chilled all the time. The best, most recent example of that I have is the 2018 European championships in Berlin. I remember I did my semi-final in the hundred, and my start was appalling. I was like a snail. And I was panicking. And normally if that had been a Diamond League, John would have been like, “Come on, Dina. What was that? Like, come on, we're trying to run a race here, we’re not going to supermarket. Like ha, ha, ha, ha,ha.” You know? And it would have been banter. But um, I was panicking cause obviously like that was the focal point of my season. And I understand that the way you set up your semi-final often dictates how the final goes. So I was a bit like, “So John, that start wasn't good.” He was like, “Oh yeah, it wasn't your best.” And then I said, “So what we're gonna do? We're going to practise blocks? Like, we gonna kind of get ready for the next race?” He was like, “Nope, just going, you're going to go out there next time and do your normal start.” And then he was like, “That’s all you do. Just go there, normal start. I don’t want to talk about it again.” I was like, okay. He's like, we're not doing blocks, we’re not doing free point, we’re just gonna warm up, relax, chill. You're gonna go out there and do like what you normally do. And we're going to call it a day. I was like, Oh. And then I went out there and I had the best start of my career. And I won. That's kind of affirming that what you already have within you, what you need to do to win. And it's that idea of the self-confidence and, because sometimes in major finals people feel like they have to outperform themselves and do the best that they've ever done to win. And don't get me wrong, physically you do. But psychologically for some people, that's not the best way to go into it. So, he knows me and he knew that I just needed to have a bit more confidence in my own ability really. And um, just go out there, and yeah, it needed to be special, and it needed to be good, but you didn't, you don't need to tell me to do that because I'll panic. So he told me, yeah, just go out there and do what you normally do. It's going to be fine. And it was. That psychological insight and that nuance in a coaching relationship is something that you do get after, as your coach has known you for what, 16 years now. It's a very close relationship, but it's ultimately like, yeah, it's a very, very valuable tool.
JAKE: And Damian, from a psychological perspective, that is really an important lesson there isn't it? Because it would have been very easy for Dina's coach to suddenly be like, right, I need to flood her with information about what I good start is and how you get one, and remind her of all the things she's learned … but instead he did the absolute opposite. And basically without saying it, he just said to her, you know how to do it. You, you you've done it before. Do it again. And that's interesting, Damian.
DAMIAN: That to me is the sign of a muster coach, of an expert, that they can take all that, all that wisdom and that knowledge and just communicate in the simplest possible terms. As Dina was describing it there, I was reminded of er, Sebastian Coe talks about his dad was his coach. And in the 1980 Moscow Olympics, when he'd failed so spectacularly in his chosen event. And then two days later he faced Steve Ovett in the 1500 metres, and his dad had just said to him, “Stay with Steve Ovett until you can smell his armpits. And, and, and again, it seems like a really funny phrase to use but Seb Coe speaks about that phrase “just smell his armpits” until the final 100 metres, and then run past him. But it was about taking complex race strategy and just making it as simple as possible. There's something inevitably genius about, about John's work to be able to do that.
DINA: I’ll tell him that too. He’ll be well happy called a genius. He won’t shut up about that. Yeah.
DAMIAN: No, but I think it is the ability to be able to communicate clearly under pressure that he would inevitably have felt is a sign of, of, of his own strength as a coach.
DINA: Well, yeah, I agree with you because ultimately when it comes to those big moments and the, the bigger the stage, sometimes the simpler the cues need to be. If you've got too much flying around your head in, in arguably what is going to be one of the most important moments of your life, then it's a bit too much, isn't it? You just gotta, sometimes you just gotta go out there and do it and not overthink it. So I think a lot of John's technique is making sure that I'm relaxed, I'm chilled, and ultimately I believe in myself and that whenever I, when I go out there I'm in the right mindset to go and achieve what I need to achieve, or what I can achieve, and yeah, for him, that's making sure I'm chilled, happy and laughing. So yeah.
DAMIAN: Have you noticed the difference then, Dina, now that previously on your journey you've been chasing after that number one, that gold medal, that spot? Have you noticed a difference since the World Championships last year?
DINA: No, no. I think it's because - I don't know how to put this - but I've never really been much of a chaser, if that makes sense. I love being the underdog as in like, I love outperforming expectations, but I'm always just trying to see where I can go. Like I've never thought I can't, I need to beat that person - because the way I see it is like, yeah, you've got the best, you’ve got the Titans of sprinting, but, um, they're not infallible. So all you need to actually do is do the best that you can because you don't know where that's going to land you. Like, yeah, that could land you in eighth place. That's not fab. You need to go and work harder. But also if you focus on yourself, somebody else might be having a bad day, or the people that’s previously number one, she might have a terrible race, but if you were just chasing her, you're, you're more watching what's happening. And if she's behind you, then suddenly you have to flip your switch in middle of a race and go for it. So for me, I've always just been focusing on myself. And so my targets have always been trying to break different time barriers. And gradually, if you kind of focus on that, you focus on yourself, your technique, your time, how you run the races. Um, as you get better and better, that's going to push you further and further up the podium. That's just how it works. But it's only in the past three years that John has really started talking about like medals and positions and stuff like that.
DAMIAN: Is that helpful, given the sport that you compete in also was that sometimes you must, you must hear rumours of other athletes that maybe are pushing the boundaries of what's legal and what's fair, and that must seem like a coping mechanism to be able to just focus on your race and forget why anybody else is doing.
DINA: Yeah, yeah. Speaking between the lines, most definitely. I think that that is, because quite frankly in track and field I say it kind of guarded at all times, but you never know what people are going to run. You'd never ever. And obviously we want to win, we want to become world champions. We want to become the Olympic champions, but ultimately you can only ever control what you're doing. And you might be running fantastically fast, but you might come third. And obviously we want to win. I don't want to sound defeatist, but you also have to be content with doing everything that you can do. And you have to be content with doing everything that's within your physical capacity that you can do. Obviously, if that brings you the gold medal, great, that's what you came for. Fantastic. But sometimes that brings the bronze medal, and, yeah, you're going to be upset because you've went out there aiming for gold, but you can't have your self-esteem tied to the gold medal, because you can never control what's happening around you. And now you understand the intricacy of the whenever I say that on TV. You understand the messaging.
DAMIAN: That distinction then between having the outcome of a gold medal or a world title versus the performance of just go and give you a very best. On those mornings where you know that you're gonna get flogged out, uh, and it's going to be physically draining and you’re exhausted, what gets you out of bed on those mornings when you know you're gonna suffer, if it's not the outcome of a gold medal?
DINA: I honestly don't think like that. Like I think I've just been doing it for so long that I don't, that the thought of not trying my hardest doesn't cross my mind. Like, I'm not looking forward to the pain, but I only know that there's going to be pain because I know I'm going to try my hardest. Like I'm always going to go to that place. And I might be rolling my eyes and dragging my feet, but it's not the session itself. It's just that I know I'm going to push myself. And I'm like, Oh great. I'm going to be in the painful place again today. And I don't have any issue getting out of bed on those days because I know it's just part of what I want to be. I always want to be the best version of myself. And I get there through hard work and pushing my body. That's how I feel. And I know it sounds really weird to a lot of people, and I know loads of people never believe me. They just think she's trying to like cover up and try and pretend that she's xxx the time. Like I'm not definitely. But, and I think I've just trained my mind over the years, like pain, in what I do, pushing myself and the pain that I'm going to feel is inevitable. There's no point waking up every morning and thinking, Oh God, I'm going to be in pain today. Because it's going to be the same tomorrow and the next day and six days a week. So if you keep thinking that you're going to be just groaning and moaning and you're going to end up praying for retirement because it's just so, like every day’s that, oh.
DAMIAN: So is it about having a clear rationale of why you're doing it? It’s not suffering for the sake of it? It’s suffering for a clear purpose?
DINA: That’s basically, yeah, suffering. Yeah, you're suffering for a purpose and understanding that unfortunately I've chosen aspiration that comes with a lot of suffering. Like, the rewards can be great. But like, unfortunately the downside is that I have to be in pain quite often. And that's something that I made peace with when I was like 13. So - yeah.
DAMIAN: Well there’s a lovely quote, isn’t there? I think it's an Einstein quote that says, you know, “He who can understand the “Why” can endure any “What”. So it's almost like as long as you know why you're doing it, you can get through anything.
DINA: Yeah, that… see, Einstein’s a good man xxx, but yeah, xxx. But, no, that’s literally, yeah. So I hope that does make sense when I say I never have like that moment when I'm like, Oh, I can't be bothered to get ... Like, I just don't have it, cause I've made peace with it. And I know why I'm going to be in pain. And I understand it and definitely the feeling of the adrenaline rush when you're in a packed stadium and the lights go down, everybody's silent before, like the hundred metre final. There's no, there's, I know it sounds crazy, but there's no better feeling than standing on the line and knowing that you've worked to the absolute maximum capacity, you have to control the next 10 seconds within the best of your ability, but you've done everything you can.
JAKE: And when you're on the start line, Dina, do you have total belief that the next 10 seconds is going to go well, regardless of injuries and other bits and pieces? Because I'm, I'm a big believer in what's the point in thinking it's not going to go well?
DINA: A hundred percent. That is something that I've been working on, I guess, as well over the past few years as well. Because ironically you make it more likely. Cause it's like, a bit like, manifestation of like, if you believe you're going to do a good start you have a higher chance of doing a good start. Yeah.
JAKE: Well I would say if you, if you believe you will, you might. If you believe you won’t, you probably won't. And that's the, you know, at least give yourself a chance, right? Life kicks us all when we’re down anyway. Why would you do it to yourself?
DINA: Exactly. Like there's seven other people in the line just trying to see me fail. So I might as well believe it myself.
JAKE: Don’t make it 8 people against you, right?
DINA: Exactly. I'm the one that's got me. I need to at least believe in myself. Cause I know those other girls won’t want you to be doing well. So yeah.
JAKE: I get a sense that this is, you're so comfortable in the role that you have as a sprinter. Is there any element of this job that is not easy for you? I mean, I wonder whether it's the social media scrutiny or people assuming if you're having an amazing photo shoot for Vanity Fair, it must have taken your eye off what you're doing. Maybe it's the fact that, I mean you wrote a really beautiful article for the Telegraph about Black Lives Matter, and the murder of George Floyd in America. Does everything come easy to you? Or are there still areas of life that are a kind of daily struggle?
DINA: No, everything definitely doesn't come easy to me. A hundred percent. And I think the most difficult thing for me to get used to has actually been being higher profile and being in the spotlight. Because nobody believes me, but especially if you talk to people I went to school with, I am painfully shy. Like …
JAKE: What!
DINA: I really. Yeah, yeah. But I understand that in the job that I'm in, you can't be painfully shy. Like it just doesn't, it doesn't work. People… And if you're painfully shy, people will project onto you while you're painfully shy, and particularly in sprinting, sometimes it's just useful to be yourself and present yourself rather than let people guess. So, um, yeah, I'm shy. When I was at school, I was one of those people. I'm still now very happy sitting at the back of the room and not really saying much. Like if I'm comfortable, I'll do it. And obviously if I have to speak I will speak.
JAKE: But why do we see that though? Why do we see that as not as good as outgoing people? Why is it? I’ve got a shy son, and I apologise for him.
DINA: Oh no!
JAKE: I know, I know, I know. And I’ve stopped doing it.
DINA: I think it just depends on the industry you're in, and it depends on also what you want to get out of it as well. Because I think the hardest thing for me to deal with, and it is hand in hand with this, is that as an athlete, you, especially as a female athlete, you have no idea whether you're going to be high profile or not. We don't sign up for the fame. Like as an athlete, nobody, particularly a track and field, nobody is going and running and pushing themselves and going to their very limit six days a week for fame. Like, nobody is doing it for fame. Like you there's other ways to be famous that are far less stressful, far less painful.
DAMIAN: So how do you deal with it, Dina?
DINA: I guess I deal with it by just kind of normalising it. And I think social media is something that is in, I think it is very difficult for quite a few people that are higher profile, and particularly ones that might be a bit more naturally shy or might be a bit more, um, they never expected to kind of be in this position. So the idea that somebody can type a message to them and because people don't see you as real, which is the thing. Like people kind of always see you as through a TV screen. They don't see you as a, as a, as a actual person with emotions. So people kind of just say what they want, like all the time, which people are free to do, but like it doesn't mean that (a) there shouldn't be consequences and (b) it doesn't mean that I have to read it. So for me on social media, I'm very much more of somebody that puts stuff out there rather than receives. So I have the accounts, but I don't spend my time scrolling them, especially over this pandemic with all the news all the time xxx. I've pretty much taken myself off Twitter. Like I'll put, I'll put stuff out there and I'll post stuff that's important. But I won't scroll my feed. And Instagram, I have, I follow all my friends in track, but I have like most people that I either compete with or they’re genuine track friends, I have them all muted. And I have like, loads of fashion and dresses and stuff that I like outside of track as well. Because I think it's also that escapism and making sure that you maintain a balance. But yeah, as you can see by my body language, that is definitely something that I'm still getting used to.
DAMIAN: But is that not unusual amongst your peer group, Dina?
DINA: It's very normal, very, very normal. Sometimes I do feel sorry as well for some of my colleagues who might even behind the scenes have stuff like Aspergers and stuff, but they're, so they're not, really not comfortable, but then people will mock them for being uncomfortable. And they think, well, they think they're hiding something because they're uncomfortable. But really they just don't understand. They have, like Aspergers, or something, because they're just trying to run, you know? And that is something that, yeah, is hard to deal with for a lot of us.
JAKE: Going back to the social media thing, I saw a brilliant article the other day, and it was basically saying that we all spend hours thinking, should I eat this food? Is this healthy? Is this carbohydrates at the right time of the day, blah, blah, blah? None of us apply that filter to what we look at on our phones. So we're kind of almost eating junk food for our brain.
DINA: All the time.
JAKE: Just by looking at accounts that are bad for us, watching other people's lives, taken through a filter. And you're then comparing other people's filtered lives to your own reality. And of course it doesn't look as good. And that’s really bad for your health…
DINA: But of course you’re sitting on your sofa like, why don't I look like that? Cause, and probably the person in the picture doesn’t look like that either. Like, they’re all photoshopped, and xxx and sucked in. They don’t look like that.
JAKE: Thank you. I saw this quote that said it's never been harder to be ourselves, because it's never been easier for other people to pass judgment.
DINA: Yeah. I actively try and limit what I take in. I actively try and control whether it's good or good or bad, and that's also comes into track. Cause I don’t need to be seeing the people that I'm racing, what they're doing in training. Like, why do I need to know what the girls that I’m racing is doing in December? But I like them. So I'm not going to cause a feud and unfollow them, but I don't need to see it. We're all unique. And it's a sport where you can hundred percent be yourself and people just line you up and see on what day which self is the best. Um, it's about making it work for you. And, and yeah, there's no point comparing, cause we're all different.
JAKE: And as someone with a 100% responsibility mindset, what they do has no impact on what you do anyway. Right?
DINA: Of course. Yeah. Yeah. Hundred percent.
JAKE: Look we've, we've pretty much reached the end, Dina, but we always finish with a little quick fire, quick fire round. So I'll go first. Good luck. Uh, they're easy. Three non-negotiable behaviours that you and the people around you have to buy into?
DINA: Oh honesty. Even if you've made a mistake, I want to know the mistake. I don't want you to cover it up. So be up front, be honest. Be responsible as well. So if I'm putting my best foot forward, I would really like you to put your best foot forward as well. I don't want you to be kind of late or lazy or kind of half doing stuff. Cause if I'm lying on the track really exhausted, you should be as well. And um, good vibes, positivity. I don't want a little black cloud around me. Like I’m not a little cloud, I'm a very sunny, happy person, but I'm also an empath. So if you're a black cloud, I will become a black cloud too. So everybody needs to be on their best behaviour. That's not being artificial. Doesn't mean you have to be like that every time. Of course we all have our down times, but definitely more ups than downs.
DAMIAN: What advice would you give a teenage Dina, just starting out?
DINA: Have fun. Definitely, keep smiling, have fun. Be patient, because well definitely when I was a teenager I was one of those people that I'd do like five press ups. And I'd be like, why are my arms still looking like this? Like why don't I have like huge xxx. So be patient and consistently work hard because patience and hard work come with hand on hand, like you might do a tough session, but it doesn't mean that you're going to instantly be fast the next day. You need to consistently work hard and be patient with it. And then the fruits of your labour will show.
JAKE: I think I know the answer to this one. Are you happy?
DINA: Yes, of course I am - very fortunate that all my family and friends have done, been okay in this crisis, in this Corona virus crisis, and I'm fit, I'm healthy. The Olympics will, fingers crossed, be a spectacle next year and hoping that I'm going to be in fantastic shape. And yeah, of course I am. It's all good. Life’s good.
DAMIAN: How important is legacy for you?
DINA: At the moment I want to, I really want to win, but I'm not really thinking about legacy. I guess I'm thinking a bit single minded short term. I want to win. I don't, I want to win now because I've surpassed so many of my own expectations that I had. Like I'd never thought I'd be an international. Always wanted to go to the Olympics. Didn't think I was going to go to the Olympics. Definitely never thought I was going to be a world champion. So you might as well go the whole way now. And um, the legacy thing I haven't, haven't thought about that yet.
JAKE: I think deal with the, uh, deal with the running and the legacy may well just take care of itself.
DINA: Hopefully, hopefully.
JAKE: Finally, one for people who are listening to this, and it’s, obviously your whole life is sport and sprinting and athletics, but this is for anyone doing any job in any walk of life. What is your one golden rule to living a high performance life? What's the one sort of final message you'd like people to take away from this podcast?
DINA: Be happy, be positive, but also be smart. Shortcuts aren't there. Shortcuts – don’t. No, that’s a big, no for me. Like, but you do things properly. Do things smartly or smartly cleverly. That's not a good word either. Be smart. Um, no shortcuts, and enjoy the ride.
JAKE: Brilliant. Listen, it's been an absolute pleasure to sit and chat to you…