Sir Ben Ainslie

Sir Ben Ainslie is the most successful Olympic sailor of all time, with four golds and one silver medal over a 16 year period.

Ben had the honour of being Team GB’s flag bearer for the London 2012 Olympic Closing Ceremony, was knighted in 2013 and in the same year added the America’s Cup to his list of achievements, with victory in the most remarkable of comebacks.

Ben is now the Team Principal and Skipper of British America’s Cup; INEOS Team UK.

TRANSCRIPT

[00:00:00] Jake: Hi there, thanks for joining us. I’m Jake Humphrey, and you’re listening to High Performance. The podcast that delves into the minds of some of the most successful athletes, visionaries, entrepreneurs and artists on the planet, and aims to unlock the very secrets of their success.

Today we’re on the South Coast of England, the home of sailing. We’re in Portsmouth to be precise.

And, as always alongside me, the youth and the brains of the operation, is that fair? [00:00:25] Damian: That’s very generous of you.

[00:00:28] Jake: My co host psychologist, professor, author, Damian Hughes. I’ve got a slight sore throat so I’ll let you do most of the talking today. But I’m particularly intrigued by our guest today, are you?

[00:00:36] Damian Yeah, I’m absolutely ecstatic to come on actually and spend some time and pick his time.

[00:00:42] Jake: See I’m really interested in the fact that this individual that we’re about to introduce spent four years getting ready for something, and then had like a moment to deliver that. I get nervous if I’ve got a week to prepare and then do a good job. When you’ve got four years, there’s a lot resting on it.

So listen, let’s get going and introduce a man who started competing at the age of eight, was on the world stage at twelve, an Olympic medalist at 19. And now, in his 40s, he’s a four time Olympic champion. He’s been knighted by Princess Ann. And leads his very own team in the multi million pound sailing challenge, the America’s Cup. That’s quite a good CV, Ben Ainslie, isn’t it? Sounds alright.

[00:01:18] Ben: It’s okay but it’s missing one thing which is winning the America’s Cup for Britain.

[00:01:24] Jake: See that is what I find really fascinating straight away. I talk about all of your achievements and you immediately take the conversation to a place of something that you haven’t yet achieved.

[00:01:30] Ben: It’s what’s next. Yeah. [00:01:33] Jake: Always. It’s always like that.

[00:01:35] Ben: Yeah. Well yeah, I think so. I think it’s -- I remember actually the first Olympics I won, I got a silver medal in ‘96 and managed to win the gold medal in 2000. And I remember getting on the airplane home and sort of sitting back and thinking, that’s it. I’ve done it. No need to worry about anything else again. And that feeling lasted for about 24 hours. And then it was okay, what’s next? What’s next?

And then to the point -- and actually after those Olympics, I sort of suffered, I guess -- probably you hear about it a lot, Damian -- but it’s sort of post Olympics, or in my past post event blues of, you reach a milestone, and then you haven’t really got anything else planned. And then you’re at a loss, because for all those years, you’ve been waking up early, getting to training, focused on one thing, and then that’s it, it’s over.

And so for me, that was quite a good lesson learned. Okay, you’ve always got to have a plan. So whichever Olympics I went to after that, I always knew straight away after, what was the plan, what was I working towards. So that helped really I think for me career wise, and a focus to move on.

[00:02:45] Jake: So are you the kind of guy that always needs to have something? Like we’re sitting here, we’re in your office, at your team’s headquarters.

You haven’t just decided to do something mildly interesting after retiring as an Olympian. You’ve decided to try and do something that we’ve never managed to do in this country before. Is that part of this for you? You have to have a really big, decisive, dynamic goal to aim for all the time in your life?

[00:03:14] Ben: It’s certainly helpful to have that, to have that drive. But I don’t think it was -- well, maybe it was conscious. When I was a kid growing up, I had two goals really in being passionate about sailing, and one was the Olympics obviously, and then the other was the America’s Cup.

And like you said, this history, the fact that the race started around the Isle of Wight in 1851 and no British team has ever won it, despite trying on numerous occasions and getting really really close.

And so as a kid, that was always a passionate ambition. So I guess in a way, it was natural going out of the Olympics and then turning that focus and attention to the America’s Cup. But if that wasn’t there, I don’t know. I don’t know if it’d mean that I’d have to find something else, whatever it is in life, to have a clear focus.

[00:03:58] Damian: Yeah. But what age were you, Ben, when those two things came into sharp focus for you? So you said it was during childhood.

[00:04:08] Ben: Yeah, I was about 11 or 12 years old, and I grew up in Cornwall. And I learned to sail at a fantastic sailing club, Restronguet Sailing Club, a local club near Falmouth in Cornwall. And so getting into dinghy racing in that stage, I think it was ‘88 Olympics, and then ‘92 Olympic -- yeah.

And watching those Olympics, and being really into sailing, and then thinking, well, there’s a potential there. Even as a 12 year old, maybe, maybe, maybe I can set my sights to one day being at the Olympic games.

And then also, at the same time, there was a British America’s Cup team that was actually training in Falmouth, which was called the Victory Challenge. And they’d raced -- I think they were racing for the ‘88 America’s Cup, ‘89 America’s Cup.

And seeing those boats, these amazing 12 meter boats sailing around the harbor, incredibly powerful and graceful, and then learning a little bit about the America’s Cup, that’s what really stoked that ambition really for me, with the America’s cup alongside the Olympics.

[00:05:12] Damian: So although you were seeing that -- like Jake and myself were talking about, this idea, Ben, this concept of the golden seed that Freud talks about. Everybody needs somebody that believes in you long before you might believe it in yourself.

So although you were seeing these amazing things, who was it that gave you that belief that you could be part of that, that was part of your narrative?

[00:05:32] Ben: I think a couple of key people. My dad was one. He was fantastic support for those early years, getting into the sport and instilling in me the focus I think, and a determination.

I mean it’s one great anecdote I often go back to where I was doing a practice race at the club and I didn’t do very well. I was a bit unlucky and I sort of half gave up.

And anyway, I got back home at the end of the day, and my dad, sort of as he was apt to do, asked me how the race went. And I sort of said, oh, I was doing really well, but then I was unlucky, and this and that happened, and it was just really unlucky. I finished third or fourth or something.

And he paused for a moment and he said, well that’s really interesting because I actually happened to watch the race and I saw that you gave up. So I was a bit struck.

And he said, look, if you want to really excel in sport and do really, really well, which I think you want to do, and I’m happy to support you to do that. But if you’re going to really make it, you’ve got to give it 100%, you can’t…

[00:06:35] Jake: And was he right?

[00:00:00] Ben: Absolutely. You can’t give up. At any point, you cannot give up, because as soon as you do that, you’re never going to get back. And I was only about 12 or 13, and he wasn’t ranting, he was just saying, look. I’ll support you, but I’m only going to do that if you’re going to commit everything, and you can’t give up.

Otherwise, if you just want to take part, that’s fine, but don’t -- you can’t really expect me and the family to drive around the countryside to events as you do when you’re competing at that level and so on.

And that really -- as I said, that really struck a cord where I thought, no, he’s right. I’ve got to commit to this.

[00:07:14] Damian: So even being at that relatively young, adolescent age, that cut through the…

[00:07:20] Ben: Yeah, it did and then another guy who was really instrumental for me in my career -- and actually many others in sailing -- he was our chief youth coach in the late 80s and 90s. He’s a guy called Jim Saltonstall and he was a fantastic -- he was probably one of the best motivators I’ve ever met.

I mean he was a good sailor, he was a world class sailor, but he wasn’t an exceptional sailing

talent himself. But he had a really good understanding of the basics of the sport, and then going through into racing nationally and internationally.

But where he was exceptional, like I said, instilling belief that we could go on to achieve great things. And at that point, we didn’t really have -- I think we had -- in the 1988 Olympics, we had one gold medal. In ‘92, I think we had a bronze medal. We weren’t really performing that well in sailing at the Olympic games, or internationally really. And he was a guy [that] instilled in my generation of sailors that we could go out and we could be world beaters.

[00:08:15] Damian: It sounds like what you’re doing here, you’re trying to create something that hasn’t been done before. So belief is based on the frames of reference, that you know what is possible to get you there.

So how did Jim do that at that young age?

[00:08:28] Ben: Yeah, it was huge, and it was really just giving us the confidence that we could go out and win, because no one was really winning internationally. But he said, well, absolutely you guys...

[00:08:38] Jake: Was it just words, or did he have techniques that he used?

[00:08:40] Ben: A lot of the coaching was really good but, like I said, it wasn’t as though there was some amazing technique that he had that no one else had. A lot of it was just the basics, but it was about really the biggest thing he gave us [which] was that instilling that belief that we could do it.

And really telling me -- he took me through, and my generation of really really successful sailors, through our youth careers. And then I met him at a dinner after the Sydney Olympics, I won a gold medal. And he said to me then, and then it’s sort of continued on. He said, well, I think -- and I had no real concept of this at this point -- but he said, I think you can win four or five gold medals. I think you have that ability, and you should be trying to achieve that.

And then I was like, well nice idea, but -- but he was absolutely right. And again, it was just giving people that belief that you can do it, and then you’ve got to obviously have the self drive and determination, and you’ve got to have the assets and the facilities to do it.

But just having someone saying, come on, you can do this.

[00:09:35] Jake: But he would have been saying that though to lots of other people, right? None of the other people managed to get four Olympic gold medals.

But right from an early age there must have been something about you that was a little bit different. In a good way. Not in a weird way.

[00:10:04] Ben: I was really determined, and sailing was the one thing that I was good at. I played cricket, and rugby, and football at school, hockey, and I was okay. I sort of made a few of the teams and so on but it wasn’t something I was exceptionally good at.

But sailing was something I clearly -- I really, really loved. Really passionate about it, even from a really young age. And I was doing okay. And then so I saw that as my, well, yeah, this is what I’m really into.

And going back to what my dad said, if this is what you’re really into, if this is what you really want to do, then you’ve got to be the best. So from quite an early age, I had that focus that I really wanted to try to be the best.

It didn’t mean that I expected necessarily I was going to get there, but that was my goal.

[00:10:45] Damian: So I know it might be a semantic part on this, Ben, but that’s an interesting one because I like the message you said about your dad’s thing of, you’ve got to do it, commit to do it.

So did he ever put the pressure on you that you had to win? The idea of being the best.

[00:11:00] Ben: I think, looking back, I think I’m really grateful to my dad in setting about the right balance. There were a couple of times where he did get a bit grumpy, and frankly I was grumpy, because I hadn’t had a good event or whatever.

But there was never -- he never put any pressure on me to get results. Or if you don’t do X, Y, Z, or if you don’t get such result, that’s it, we’re going to stop, or anything like that. He just wanted to help support me.

I think he could see that I was into it enough that I didn’t really need -- other than that one comment that he made -- didn’t really need any other motivation; it was there, and he just needed to try to support it. It was more me actually getting upset if I wasn’t getting the results.

[00:11:45] Damian: And how did he handle those moments then?

[00:11:48] Ben: Pretty well. I think now I’m much more mature and I look back, I wish perhaps there were times when he maybe could have helped me get through that disappointment. I think when I was younger I really didn’t handle disappointment that well. I’d get frustrated and maybe lose the plot or whatever. Just lose that focus, which we all know, when you’re in the heat of competition, you can’t afford to do that.

And so it took me a while to learn that myself really; that if things went wrong, I needed to regroup pretty quickly and get back on track.

[00:12:20] Jake: And then fast forwarding to when the Olympic years began. I’m really interested how you can train and train and train for four years, and of course you’re competing in other sailing events. But what really resonates with people around the world is the Olympics.

So when you’ve trained for four years, and there are you in an Olympic final, how do you focus your mind on just performing on that day? Not allowing the thoughts to wander to four years of effort, all the people that have helped you to get to that point?

What’s your trick for delivering on that day?

[00:14:48] Ben: There’s a great saying isn’t there that luck is preparation looking for an opportunity, and I think, for me, that was the key. I had to -- if I’d done the preparation, then yeah, there was pressure and expectation, probably more so from within than externally. But again, if I’d done the preparation, then I knew I’d done everything that I could.

And then it would actually -- the trick then was to enjoy the moment, enjoy the challenge of being in that high pressure scenario. So learning to actually enjoy that rather than being...

[00:13:18] Jake: Yeah. So the preparation gave you the serenity to think, listen, I’ve done everything I possibly can. I’m the best prepared person on the water. That probably allowed you to perform properly.

[00:13:25] Ben: Yeah, I think so. I think so, and that’s certainly how I managed to deal with it.

[00:13:30] Damian: When did that dawn on you then, Ben? Because you said this idea of learning to control your emotions and things like that was a process that you went through. When did that…

[00:13:45] Ben: Yeah, very much trial and error. The first Olympics I went to, ‘96, I was close to the gold medal with Brazilian sailor Robert Scheidt.

And just narrowly lost out in the final race, made a bit of a mistake on the start line, and sort of reviewing that realized that maybe I’d let the pressure of the situation and the expectations get to me a bit. And in a critical moment, on the start, lost that focus and made the wrong decision.

And thereon in, really moving between the ‘96 Olympics and the 2000 Olympics, and again coming to this final race showdown against Robert. It was about how to control those emotions a bit more, and execute better really.

[00:14:30] Jake: And what techniques did you use then?

[00:14:32] Ben: I think again it came down to the preparation. And then yes, it was super high pressure, once every four years, a revisit of what happened in ‘96.

But also, in that time, there’d been some other big events where I’d managed to beat Robert at world championships and so on. And again, we’d had close races and tight races.

And learning from each one of those, getting more confidence that I could deal with those high pressure situations.

[00:15:00] Damian: What were the conversations you were having with yourself at that moment, while you were standing there on the start line?

[00:15:08] Ben: I was just really focused on the process really, of what I needed to do. And so take the Sydney race for example, it was quite complex in terms of the point scoring in sailing, but I had to try and get Robert down to the back of the fleet in order to secure the gold medal.

And that was a really big challenge, given his ability as a sailor, and you can’t just do that by ramming a guy off the track; you’ve got to use the rules and everything, and it’s quite complex. But that was a big enough task really in itself.

[00:15:38] Jake: ...That you’d even considered running him off the track. Can I just smash his boat out of the water?

[00:15:42] Ben: Yeah, I did consider it. Sadly it wasn’t quite -- that wasn’t quite fair. So it was just focusing on that task and not being distracted.

[00:15:52] Jake: But then go back just a bit earlier in that process, Ben. Like the night before for example, because I like the idea that, like you said, you’re going through, I’ve got evidence that I can do this. And that’s where your belief is coming from.

So did you formalize that process the night before the race?

[00:16:08] Ben: Well I had to -- I had a plan A and a plan B, and there were two races on the last day. And a lot depended on how that penultimate race of the series went. Unfortunately Robert had a better race than I did, and for me, it was then at that point just trying to keep within distance, so I still had a shout to win going into the last race. And I made that by about one or two points, so I was on a knife edge already.

And then very quickly I was into plan B which was, well, I’ve got to use the discard system, which as I said earlier meant the best chance to try and confirm winning the gold was to sail Robert to the back of the fleet, rather than -- I could have taken the strategy that I’d go and try and win the race, and I had to -- I think if I won the race, Robert needed to be outside the top 10 or 12. Which, realistically, it was a 45 boat fleet, but like I said, his talent and ability, that was a pretty risky scenario. Whereas if I took him -- if I could execute the plan in sending him to the back of the fleet, then that would guarantee a gold medal.

And so that was my plan B. And in a way, it was easier. The fact that, after that penultimate race, it was pretty clear I only had one option. That actually made life -- even though it’s a pretty extreme option.

[00:17:26] Jake: Quite a ruthless option as well, isn’t it?

[00:17:28] Ben: It made life a lot simpler really, and so I just had to try and execute that.

[00:17:35] Jake: Four years previous when you were in Atlanta, had you had that plan B in your back pocket? Or was that something that you’d learned in those four years?

[00:17:42] Ben: Yeah, I didn’t really have too many options in Atlanta, because of the point situation. So it’s slightly different. But definitely I was a wide eyed teenager in Atlanta and sort of blown away by the Olympic experience.

And actually, I wasn’t expected to win; I wasn’t even probably expected to get a medal. And the fact that I was challenging for the gold medal was -- like I said, I was perhaps a little bit out of my depth. Interestingly, my initial response on losing out and not getting a gold medal was I was totally distraught, because then I -- even though I was only 19 years old and I ended up having many more opportunities in sailing, you only get one spot per nation. And in a sailing nation like Britain where we’ve got a lot of talent, you might only get one opportunity to go to an Olympic games.

So straight away my thought process was like, this may be the only chance that I have in my life to win a gold medal and I’ve blown it. And so I was pretty distraught at that moment.

[00:18:48] Jake: On a couple of occasions, Damian and I have tried to get you to talk about the emotion of sailing in an Olympic final and straight away, your answer has moved on to the process.

Is that fair? You don’t really allow yourself to go to emotional places when the pressure is on, and you actually think, right, I know exactly how to win this race by executing ABC. So that -- so all your energy and all your spare capacity goes on the process of winning, rather than the emotion.

[00:19:18] Ben: I think so, yeah. That’s interesting you mention that, I hadn’t really -- maybe it’s just subconsciously you think about the process a lot. I’d never really thought about the emotion of winning that much other than actually if you can achieve that. And obviously that’s a great moment, but the…

[00:19:35] Jake: Would you have been there on the start line at an Olympic final and thought about your dad?

[00:19:38] Ben: No. No, so yeah, like I said it was just about the job that needed to be done really.

[00:19:43] Jake: It’s interesting though isn’t it?

[00:19:45] Damian: Yeah it is, because -- and it’s fascinating because there was the famous example in the 2012 Olympics where it was, don’t make Ben angry. So it was very much that sense of -- so emotion was fueling you there.

[00:20:00] Ben: Yeah, but that was after. That was in between. So I finished the race, and I hadn’t been performing very well really up until that moment. I was halfway through the competition.

And frankly the Danish sailor and the Dutch sailor were sailing better, they were bigger and heavier, and in strong winds, they were faster, and the way things were going, I probably wasn’t going to win unless I changed something.

So I kind of used that -- there was an incident in the race which really pissed me off, and I -- so yeah, I certainly used that as a way to try to turn my psyche around and say, no actually I’m going to fight back. And that was out of order in that particular race, I’m going to do my penalty turns and then overtake the other two guys, and then turn around at the finish line and basically

-- without getting too colorful language, explain to those -- explain that…

[00:21:02] Jake: But I like the idea you said, that you had to do something different, and therefore that is a very different strategy to draw on. The power of the emotion rather than just the process of just keep going though, doing the same thing .

[00:21:15] Ben: Yeah, because there are times when it clearly isn’t working, right? So you’ve got to do something. You can’t just keep doing -- if you keep in that mindset or process, you’re not going to win. And I think you do have to be able to adapt.

[00:21:28] Damian: That leads me into an area that always fascinates me for elite performers like yourself, Ben, and that is the courage to do that. The courage to -- if it’s not working, to rip it apart or throw it out the window and try something different. I’m interested in your view on that.

[00:21:48] Ben: Well I think a lot of it comes back to being -- I think back to my early days of learning the sport and learning how to compete. A little bit -- and self improvement a little bit comes back to honesty, I think, doesn’t it.

If you’re not honest about your ability, or the way you’re performing -- a number of times now I was growing up and I had mates when I was sailing and they were like, yeah, I was winning that race but then such and such happened, and I was really unlucky. You’re like, mate, that is not the way it went down. But I’d sort of inwardly smile because they were sort of kidding themselves; that they thought their performance was way better than the reality.

So as I said earlier, I’m almost also my harshest critic really, in terms of evaluating my performance. Being really honest about how I can improve, how I can get better. And I think that then followed into the competition itself. So if something wasn’t going well, I guess over time I became reasonably adept at saying, okay, this isn’t working; pretty quickly I’ve got to change something here, or I’m not going to get the required result.

[00:22:55] Damian: So when you take that same characteristic outside into the real world, because that self reflection is quite rare outside of elite sport. Have you tried to adopt that same philosophy in other fields outside of?

[00:22:14] Ben: Yeah, it’s fascinating going from an individual sportsman to a team sportsman, which is what I had to do in the America’s Cup. When I first got involved in the America’s Cup in 2001 -- so I was 23 years old, and I got involved with a U.S. team called One World. I then sailed for team New Zealand for the 2007 America’s Cup. I then had a British Team called Origin for the 2010 Cup. And then Oracle team USA for the 2013 Cup in San Francisco, and then moving into starting a British team. So that early career in the America’s cup was really in conjunction with the Olympic career, and so I was making that transition. To start off with, I’m brutally honest, I was rubbish at it. Going from being a selfish, self focused individual…

[00:24:00] Jake: What were you rubbish at?

[00:24:03] Ben: Well really relating to other people, especially in a sporting environment, high pressure environment. And I set really high standards for myself, and then you have those expectations of others. And not that they didn’t also have high standards, but if someone was making a mistake, rather than actually trying to support that person and help them adapt, and grow as a team, quite often I’d just get frustrated and not only with myself but with the team. So it took a little while to figure that bit out, if I’m honest.

And then, now, into this team that we’ve had since 2013 -- 2014, yeah, it’s again one of those processes of building a new team, the challenges of the design, the technical challenges of the

America’s Cup, getting all of that together. The logistics of it, and then getting out on the race course, and like I said, we’ve got over 100 people here in the organization.

So that’s really interesting. How do you get everyone on the same page, everyone focused. Different personalities, you’ve got a lot of really creative designers and engineers out there who perhaps aren’t maybe the best communicators at times. Some really hungry athletes or sailors who want to just get out on the water and race. And marrying all of that together.

So that’s really been a fascinating learning process. [00:25:20] Damian: And how do you do that?

[00:25:25] Ben: Well yeah, I mean a lot of it has been, again, trial and error. A lot of it has been learning from -- like I said, I was with the New Zealand team for 2007. That was a fantastic learning opportunity, because behind the All Blacks is probably the sailing team and the cricket team [that] are the next highest profile teams in New Zealand sport. And they take -- in that team, in that America’s cup cycle, we did actually spend quite a lot of time training with the All Blacks, and going between different camps and learning a lot about that organization, which was fascinating. And then going into sailing with the Oracle team for 2013, which had a lot of the key people who were from the original team New Zealand that won the cup in ‘95, and had then moved on and gone through different teams. But marrying that with sort of an American approach to sport. And a kind of completely different approach really in the end, but equally successful. So trying to learn from those really, and then incorporate that into this British team.

[00:26:25] Jake: The focus on failure is an interesting one for me, because when I’ve -- I’ve obviously grown up in television, so in TV we’re really nice to each other all the time. We tell each other how great everything is.

Our first ever meeting after the first grand prix that I hosted for the BBC, we all sat down and the producer went into this big long ramble about how great everything was. Until David Corther stopped him and said, “Sorry sir. You’re wasting air, and you’re wasting my time. I don’t want to know ever again in a meeting about the good stuff, because it’s already good. I want to know about the bad stuff.”

And from that moment onwards, from the four years I did Formula One, going forwards now with all of the other things I’m doing, the focus on the failure, the focus on the bad, is so much more useful than the focus on the good.

But it’s quite a rare thing. I think people like to look at the good stuff, and the bad they kind of sweep under the carpet, because it’s not nice to look at.

[00:27:12] Ben: Painful. Yeah.

[00:27:14] Jake: Yeah. But obviously you’ve created a mindset where focusing on the failures, focusing on the bad stuff, you’ve realized the huge learning that can come from that.

[00:27:22] Ben: Yeah, it has to, and you’re absolutely right. We had an interesting -- with the sailing team we went and we did some training with some special forces groups.

And one of the fascinating approaches that they had, and I think it really resonated with us sailors was, when they’re out in the field, and they have a debrief, they have to be brutally honest because they’re in do or die scenarios. People’s lives are at stake; there can’t be any niceties.

And I think when you look at it in that -- just with that level of intensity, I think for our sailors, it helps a sailor. Actually, come on, we’ve got to be honest with another. And it doesn’t mean -- there are going to be some difficult conversations, but we’re far better being brutally honest.

We’re going to develop more, individually and as a group, if we take that approach.

[00:28:10] Damian: But one of the big mantras of lik the Special Forces, or the All Blacks, or some of the other environments that you’ve seen and I’ve been fortunate enough to be in is that feedback is often on behaviours, not on personality. So there’s the saying that you can behave disagreeably without being a disagreeable person.

So what would you say are the behaviours that have been common to the successful teams when you’ve integrated into them? What are the behaviours that are consistently present?

[00:28:40] Ben: Oh I think the team ethos is absolutely key.

And to your point, people often ask me sort of what do you do about really super talented individuals that can’t work within a team. And my experience with other successful teams and with this team is that we don’t have them in the organization, because we’ve got 11 guys on the boat this time, we had 6 in the last America’s Cup. And if one of those guys isn’t behaving as a team player, it doesn’t matter how talented they are, it just disrupts the whole group.

[00:29:14] Jake: Even if they’re a brilliant maverick.

[00:29:16] Ben: Yeah, yeah. I mean we don’t -- I mean maybe it’s different in our sport. Perhaps I can think of -- maybe if you had a star striker, I don’t know...

[00:39:25] Jake: No, I think it’s not. I mean you used the phrase FIFO, fit it or fuck off. [00:29:30] Ben: Yeah, it is that.

[00:29:32] Jake: It’s true though, isn’t it? That is it. And it’s not just on the boat is it, I mean you can probably hear in the background actually they’re building your boat downstairs, we can hear the drilling or whatever they’re doing. I mean you've got over 100 people here.

What are the behaviours that you see that ring alarm bells for you? Not just on the boat, in the organization.

[00:29:55] Ben: I think when you get to our scale, 100+ people, the biggest issue is the communication. And it sounds so simple, communication; when you get several people, it’s so hard. And you’ve got lots of decisions being made at different levels in the organization. And getting that across clearly to people what we’re trying to achieve. And in each department, which decisions are being made, what’s expected of people.

And for sure, we can be way, way better. As I just said, we had a team meeting, and that was kind of like a, we’re halfway through the campaign, this is our review, and let’s move forward. What are the lessons learned? In going into building and designing our second boat.

And one of the key things that’s come up is communication. We can be better -- we’ve got to be better.

So that’s something that I’m taking away from that.

[00:30:38] Jake: Do either of you think that there is a moment where a maverick is okay? Like obviously you wrote the Barcelona way in the book, you talk about Ibrahimovich signing for Barcelona, not fitting in, and FIFO, they got rid of him.

Equally you may have had, at times, mavericks in your world, where you think they’re so fantastic.

Like let’s take Lewis Hamilton, I’d say Lewis Hamilton is a maverick. Yeah, he operates in an environment very similar to an America’s Cup team; it’s all about a technology based sport trying to beat everyone else in the competition. It’s so intense.

Is there ever a situation where a maverick is okay?

[00:31:15] Ben: Well I think in your case of Formula One, it probably is because it’s one guy in the car doing his thing, right? So it doesn’t matter who he pisses off, pardon my language again, but he’s responsible for getting that car, getting the maximum performance. Yeah, he’s got to work well with his engineers and his designers.

And I think the interesting thing about Lewis Hamilton, people often say, yeah well he’s in the best car so of course he’s going to win. Well, firstly, he’s beating his teammate who, from what I’ve experienced, are pretty talented guys as well. But also, that development has come from him working with his technicians, his engineers. And that’s a team game.

So I think he can probably get away with it when he’s in the car, and he’s doing his thing in competition. But when he’s doing out of the car, he’s got to perform, in terms of his relationship with the team, communication.

[00:32:05] Damian: I have to agree with Ben. I think that comes across, that I think there are certain non negotiable behaviours that every team has to sign up to. So the Barcelona example, like a great one would be when they signed Suarez, and people thought that this guy was a maverick, and he could be impetuous or indisciplined. But then when you speak to people who see him day after day in training, they said he’s the hardest worker, he’s a pretty humble bloke. He’s a guy that is a team player. When he’s been impetuous he’s done it to try and help the team develop.

So I think they’re the three non negotiable behaviours in their world. And then you can sometimes allow some of that more maverick tendency on top of that. Like I said, in a race, that ability to see things that nobody else is a huge advantage.

[00:32:54] Ben: Yeah because you don’t want to knock that out of people, because that’s a lot of the time where the talent comes from. And wanting to display that, showcase that talent. I think like the Suarez kind of example.

Such a really fine balance I guess as a manager. You’ve got to encourage those superstars to do their thing, but also try and keep a strong team ethos, to, again, find that balance.

[00:33:18] Damian: So what would you describe then as -- so in your team of 11 people, what are the trademark behaviours, like the non negotiable behaviours, that you’ve recruited them against and that they’ve signed up to?

[00:33:30] Ben: It’s interesting, we have -- out of our -- we have about 16 - well, we have 16 guys in our sailing squad, and ten of those are what we’d call our grinders; who are the muscular guys, who are grinding the coffee grinders and creating the power that we need to be able to sail the boat. If they can’t create that power, then we won’t be able to push the boat hard enough.

Won't be fast enough. So they have to be absolutely the fittest team out there, they can be.

And then we have six guys who are more to do with the performance of the boat. So either in my case, driving the boat, or trimming sails, or working on the tactics. Giles Scott for example, who was our gold medalist in 2016, he was our tactician, and he’s helping decide where the boat goes on the course.

And it’s a bit of a split really in the personalities and the skill sets. The grinders, we need guys who are phenomenal athletes really, and they’re prepared to do it. It takes day in and day out, like any other high performance sport, it’s pretty hard grind. Training two or three times a day, day in and day out; it doesn’t stop. And they’ve got to be committed to that.

And then the performance guys, a lot is about their experience, what they’ve achieved, having been able to perform in high pressure situations. So we know that they’ve got the talent, but we also know that they’re Olympic gold medalists, so they’re world champions. We know when the pressure’s on, they’ll perform for us; they won’t wilt in the pressure of the America’s Cup.

So yeah, it’s sort of three key elements to it, I guess, depending on what position they are on the boat.

[00:35:08] Jake: And if someone’s not right for the boat, how easy do you find making ruthless decisions for the good of the team?

[00:35:15] Ben: Yeah, it’s -- well, it’s never easy losing someone, having to make a decision like that. But when you’re in a team environment, it’s almost easier than if I was to say -- even if I

was only racing on my own, I had other people on the team training -- the coach and people that were working on that team.

So in the way the performance was just down to me on the water, and that was easier. When it’s a group on the water and you’re not performing, that’s hard, because you’ve got to make some tough decisions.

But when you bring it back down to the team, you say, this is the right decision for the team rather than the individuals, and unfortunately that individual, we’ve got to change now. Then it’s easier, if you take that approach to it.

[00:36:00] Jake: I get the sense that you’re massively self critical, right? You will sit and stew over things if you haven’t done the job right. You don’t hold back with yourself, do you?

[00:36:08] Ben: Yeah, probably to a fault. But yes. Yeah.

[00:36:12] Jake: Are you that critical to the people around you? Or do you find that you’re harsher with yourself, and actually you have to work quite hard at just editing yourself, just pulling yourself back a little bit, with the people around you.

Because. if you gave them what you give yourself, they might not cope as you can.

[00:36:25] Ben: Yeah, that’s absolutely right. And as I said earlier, that’s one of the early things I’d learned was, I can’t -- you can’t -- in a leadership role, managing people and, yes, set really high expectations, but you’ve got to find -- and it depends on the individual.

Some people you can push harder than others, and it’s -- and you've got to try to work out those guys in your team. Which need nurturing, day in and day out, which can take a bit of a hit. And actually respond to that, and I guess that’s a key of leadership and management.

[00:36:56] Jake: I think often we’re so focused, aren’t we, on the struggle, we forget to think about the end goal. And if you haven’t -- what you don’t want to do is get to -- I don’t know, what are you now, 42?

[00:37:08] Ben: Yeah.

[00:37:09] Jake: Let’s say you’ve got another two America’s Cups in you, you decide at 50 I’m done. What you don’t want to do is get to 50 and think, shit, I never actually stopped and enjoyed that. I never smelled the roses. I ran my own team, I stood at a window -- there’s a window to our right now, and you can see down below us, building boats, people are everywhere.

Do you enjoy it? Do you take the moment? I use the phrase savor it; do you savor it?

[00:37:30] Ben: Yeah, you’re absolutely right, and there are times when I do have that conversation with myself, that I need to remember that. Because it’s so all consuming, these kinds of campaigns, and everybody is working really, really hard. And you’ve got to support that.

And it’s difficult. There’s a reason why Britain has never won it. It’s bloody hard, frankly. Because to go up against a really good defending team, like we have this team with the New Zealanders, and beat them on their home patch; you’ve really got to hit it out of the park, in terms of getting the right design of boat and then sailing it to its maximum.

So it’s really intense. Everyone is under a lot of pressure. But you’re -- and I try to remind myself of it daily. Maybe not daily, but there has to be -- it has to be enjoyable, and we have to make it fun for the people here. If they’re not…

[00:38:18] Jake: I’m not talking about the other people here, Ben. I’m talking about you. [00:38:20] Ben: For me?

[00:38:21] Jake: Yes, do you enjoy -- like maybe you don’t. Maybe you’re so involved in it, you can’t stop and look outside it.

[00:38:26] Ben: Yeah I do, when I stop and think about it, I do. But quite often when your head’s in it, and you’ve got difficult moments -- but I think in a way, in a perverse way, that’s also enjoyable, because you want to be pushed, you want to be under pressure. You want it to be hard.

Because if it was just easy, well, that wouldn’t fuel the achievement, going through the difficult moments, coming out the other side, and achieving the end goal. That makes it that much more rewarding.

[00:38:55] Jake: Damian sent me a message about today, and he said one of the things he was most looking forward to finding out is sort of bouncing back from adversity.

Would you say that the America’s Cup failure in Bermuda was your -- the lowest moment of your career?

[00:39:08] Ben: It was definitely right up there, yeah. It was really...

[00:39:10] Jake: Do you think about that every day? Is that almost an energy source for you now, going ahead to 2021?

[00:39:15] Ben: Yeah, it’s definitely a motivation. In terms of, [Inaudible] career, but it wasn’t a disappointment, but it was definitely the most challenging moment in my career. Individually, being hugely frustrated with the situation we’re in, but having to try and lead a team through it. Like I said, in the end, we’re all really proud of the way that the team reacted to that.

Okay, we didn’t win it, but we improved massively as an organization, as a team. And I think, through that, set ourselves up for this next challenge.

[00:39:45] Jake: Listen, we’re running out of time quickly, a couple more things I just want to mention. We’ve got a quickfire round.

But first, what still motivates you? What is this all about? Sitting here, running this whole team, all of these people under you. Why?

[00:39:58] Ben: Well I go back to the America’s Cup, we’ve never won it for Britain. For me personally, that’s a big motivation; I know for a lot of people here it is as well. And the fact that we started something, so many people involved, putting a huge amount of effort into it. And not just them, they have families and so on, the commitment that they’re putting in. And what it would mean to them, and to sport I think in the U.K.

So it’s the only sailing community in the U.K. to win the America’s Cup would be a huge, huge moment for us. So that’s really why we’re doing it.

[00:40:28] Damian: So what are your three non negotiable behaviours? [00:40:30] Ben: Commitment, resilience, and team ethos.

[00:40:35] Jake: What advice would you give a teenage Ben just starting out?

[00:40:38] Ben: Learn as much as you possibly can from your characters and your peers. [00:40:42] Damian: So how did you react to your greatest failure?

[00:00:00] Ben: I reviewed it hundreds of times in my head, and tried to learn the key lessons, and set that straight; not make the same mistake twice.

[00:40:55] Jake: How important is legacy to you?

[00:41:00] Ben: Yeah, legacy is pretty key. It’s something that, you set a goal and a target, you want to achieve that, you don’t want to finish until you’ve achieved that. And I guess that’s part of a legacy.

[00:41:10] Jake: And the final one.

[00:41:11] Damian: What would you say is your one golden rule for living a high performance life?

[00:41:15] Ben: Never give in.

[00:41:16] Jake: Love it. Listen, it’s been a fascinating hour to sit and chat with you, thank you so much for taking the time; when you’re got all these people, and it feels like a long way away, two years, to the next America’s Cup, but it’s going to be here in the blink of an eye, isn’t it?

[00:41:30] Ben: Yeah, 18 months now until it’s March 2021, and yeah, we’re finishing off our first boat, we’re building our second boat. We’ve got some regattas next year starting in Cagliari, in Sardinia in April, and then through to America’s Cup in January ‘21. So it’s going to go pretty quick, like you’re saying.

The team’s working incredibly hard and [to] get that cup home. [00:41:50] Jake: Thank you very much for your time. [00:41:52] Ben: Thanks guys, fascinating.

[00:41:54] Jake: And savor ir, right?

[00:41:55] Ben: Absolutely. Enjoy it.

[00:42:00] Jake: Well, Ben has now left the room. How interesting was that?

[00:42:04] Damian: I was just saying I thought it was fascinating. I think the thing that jumped out for me was just the searing self awareness and self honesty that he has is...

[00:42:14] Jake: I bet that’s exhausting though. Do you know what I mean? [00:42:16] Damian: Yeah, I was thinking that. I was thinking how...

[00:42:18] Jake: When I asked him the question about, do you actually enjoy it -- it’s hard to see this on our podcast, because you can’t see it, but he -- you could see this sort of flicker come across his face of like, hold on, yeah; that’s an element that I perhaps haven’t gotten right.

And you do wonder what this is all for, like where does that burning energy to constantly do this come from?

[00:42:35] Damian: Yeah, very much. And I found it fascinating when we were thinking to Josie beforehand as well, where she’d spoken about being able to spot when he goes into that performance mode, and his ability to switch between being a father and being a competitor starts to get blurred.

So yeah, I can imagine it is exhausting for him.

[00:42:55] Jake: Amazing. But that’s always part of the thing of an elite mindset, or a high performance mindset, is actually -- it might be hugely rewarding if you can nail it, but actually it isn’t the easiest way to live, is it?

[00:43:08] Damian: No, exactly. I think that conversation that Ben recounted, that his dad had said about, if you want to be average, carry on doing what you’re doing, when he described that experience in the Last America’s Cup of, we’re going to come last until we do something different.

And that willingness to go into that discomfort zone is hard.

[00:43:30] Jake: That’s where most people can’t go, isn’t it?

[00:43:32] Damian: It’s hard. Yeah exactly, that’s it. And sometimes it’s ego that gets in the way, sometimes it’s the idea of not wanting to look stupid. But I think the fact that he’s faced that down is where that idea of belief comes from.

[00:43:45] Jake: I don’t know what you think, but of all of the elite performers that I’ve spent my career working alongside or interviewing, it’s left me feeling that everyone can be a high performance individual. I honestly believe anyone can do that.

But you have to really be able to put yourself there mentally. And that is what a lot of people struggle with. You can get there, but the amount of effort it takes is really quite a lot.

And you hear from Ben, right from an early age, he obviously didn’t really want to say it too overtly but he just thought differently to all of the different 8, 9, 10 year olds around him.

[00:44:18] Damian: It’s a really good point Jake, and I often think of sometimes when I might speak to people that are like casual golfers, and they’ll say to me, ‘oh, can you help me with my golf game?’

And the first question is not really, no, but tell me what’s your issue? And they’re all, I want to get better. And my first question is, well how often do you practice? And the irony is they’ll simply say oh I don’t really practice, I just play. And I’ll say, well you are where you are then; you’re as shit as your results indicate.

So there’s one of two things there, either settle for the level you’re at and just enjoy playing golf at the level you’re at, or do something different. Train harder. Go in and invest more time practicing if you want to get better. But like you said, that willingness to push yourself and do something different goes against a lot of what our natural instincts are.

And that’s what I think separates people like Ben from many of us.

[00:45:14] Jake: I think people find it hard to be too harsh on themselves, don’t they? I think that Ben probably couldn't be harsher on himself if he tried.

[00:45:20] Damian: Yeah, and that was -- see, that bit fascinated me, when I was asking him about how much does he have to moderate that critical voice when he then applies his standards

to others.

And I sensed that he’s had to do that, and he recognizes the pain that causes. Because like you said, a lot of people don’t like that self reflection.

[00:45:42] Jake: Yeah. And interesting when he said, when I put him up on the whole emotion thing, because every time I tried to go down the emotion road he was like, well, the process, well the process.

He’s got to go there at some point though, hasn’t he, because I think emotion is probably the reason for the success; he just doesn’t realize it.

[00:45:58] Damian: Yeah but I think the way he’s rationalized it, again listening to him, was that he’s done it in moments of desperation, when things aren’t working. It’s a well he draws on.

That’s his plan B.

[00:46:10] Jake: He’s an interesting guy to be in the company of though, isn’t he? The intensity burns bright with him.

[00:46:13] Damian: Yeah, it does. But again, I’d say -- like we were speaking before we came on air about just the humility of these guys as well, that there’s an ordinariness to him as well, that I think -- I think that emphasizes your point, that anyone can adopt this high performance mindset.

[00:46:34] Jake: Listen, if my son grows up to be like Ben Ainslie, I will be a happy dad, let’s put it that way. Really interesting. I think we both got a lot out of that.

[00:46:42] Damian: Yeah.

[00:46:43] Jake: And I hope that you at home feel exactly the same; that that last little while listening to Ben Ainslie talk about his high performance lifestyle gives you plenty of food for thought.

Thanks for listening, and plenty more to come soon.